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Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro Review (headphone)

Aerith Gainsborough

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Wouldn't a system wide EQ set up in a VST host/voicemeeter setup also take care of Tidals application?

Though personally, I would just not bother with the MQA snakeoil.
 

ZööZ

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Wouldn't a system wide EQ set up in a VST host/voicemeeter setup also take care of Tidals application?

Though personally, I would just not bother with the MQA snakeoil.
Doubt it, as I understand it Tidal needs to be in Exclusive mode to do the unfolding and when it is it doesn't let other applications use the selected audiopath. Might be wrong though because I'm not familiar with either of your suggestions.
I'm under the impression that the snake oil bit of MQA kicks in after 96khz/24bit, so after the first or second unfold, can't remember which?

EDIT: Or is danny2 full of shit here on this thread https://community.roonlabs.com/t/i-know-roon-does-the-1st-unfold-but-is-it-good-enough/73891/18
 
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KTN46

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Doubt it, as I understand it Tidal needs to be in Exclusive mode to do the unfolding and when it is it doesn't let other applications use the selected audiopath. Might be wrong though because I'm not familiar with either of your suggestions.
I'm under the impression that the snake oil bit of MQA kicks in after 96khz/24bit, so after the first or second unfold, can't remember which?

EDIT: Or is danny2 full of shit here on this thread https://community.roonlabs.com/t/i-know-roon-does-the-1st-unfold-but-is-it-good-enough/73891/18

MQA is snake oil. It cannot 'improve' audio in any way beyond what is literally lossless. Just go nuts with APO and have Tidal play you some FLACs.

Having ripped about 100GB+ of music from Tidal though, I can confirm that some music that Tidal claims is FLAC is actually fake and you likely can't do anything about that. But that's a topic for another day.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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Doubt it, as I understand it Tidal needs to be in Exclusive mode to do the unfolding and when it is it doesn't let other applications use the selected audiopath. Might be wrong though because I'm not familiar with either of your suggestions.
Depends, does Tidal "unfold" it in software and does MQA work with any DAC in that instance or do you still need "special-sauce" approved DACs for it?
If it is the former, then there is no reason why it would not work, you would address the virtual soundcard (voicemeeter) in exclusive mode.
If it's the latter: yep it's bound to physical hardware. You'd need to hook up an analogue EQ after the DAC or do another AD -> DSP -> DA conversion.

The only instance in which MQA will sound differently, is when the master is handled differently or when it is an entirely different master.
PCM is lossless, studios need to work with it anyway to do most digital signal editing, so a final mix should sound the same whether it is converted to DSD, MQA or stays PCM.

IIRC, MQA was more interesting in the respect that it is a better lossy compression than mp3, enabling higher quality at a lower bandwidth for streaming services.

Having ripped about 100GB+ of music from Tidal though, I can confirm that some music that Tidal claims is FLAC is actually fake and you likely can't do anything about that. But that's a topic for another day.
Yep, I noticed that in JFla's album "Rose". Some tracks have painfully obvious compression artifacts and the usual brickwall cut @16K.

HiFi my gluteus maximus.
 

ZööZ

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MQA is snake oil. It cannot 'improve' audio in any way beyond what is literally lossless. Just go nuts with APO and have Tidal play you some FLACs.

Having ripped about 100GB+ of music from Tidal though, I can confirm that some music that Tidal claims is FLAC is actually fake and you likely can't do anything about that. But that's a topic for another day.
So even the first unfold is lossy?
 

ZööZ

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Depends, does Tidal "unfold" it in software and does MQA work with any DAC in that instance or do you still need "special-sauce" approved DACs for it?
If it is the former, then there is no reason why it would not work, you would address the virtual soundcard (voicemeeter) in exclusive mode.
So that would probably work then as the application does the first unfold without the need of specific dac
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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So that would probably work then as the application does the first unfold without the need of specific dac
Definitely worth a shot then, especially since the software involved is free.
 

ZööZ

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Aerith Gainsborough

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So there are only 6 bands for parametric EQ? that's disappointing as e.g. Oratory1990 eq's have 10bands consistently.
https://vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/VoicemeeterBanana_UserManual.pdf
(my screenshot of the page is apparently too large to embed here but 6 band(cell) peq is on page 18)
Voicemeeter is only used as a virtual soundcard, so you can route any signals into your DAW. I never used it's post processing abilities at all.
For EQ I use this (definitely not free though :D):
https://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-3-equalizer-plug-in

This is probably more of a fit for you, as @Nerdsinc suggested. Not sure if it even needs voicemeeter or whether it can do systemwide correction on it's own, as I never used it.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

BTW: we are steering off topic here, so if you want further help lets either take it to PM or open up a new Fred.
 

ZööZ

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BTW: we are steering off topic here, so if you want further help lets either take it to PM or open up a new Fred.

I agree

I'm using equalizer apo as we speak but it doesn't work when Tidal is in exclusive mode I'll have to play around with voiceemeter and apo if I can combine the two somehow to eq Tidal in exclusive mode with 10bands.

Back to topic
The pleather pads don't sound so off anymore after a couple of tracks I've listened today but that might just be me forgetting what it sounded like with the stock ones and haven't switched from Amir's eq yet so that might play a role also. Amir's review has definitely kept me busy these few days playing with these headphones and Equalizations :D oh well guess its a hobby.
 

markanini

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I wonder if any combination of pads/mods can salvage the 990s.
Beyerdynamic already did with the TYGR 300 R.
index.jpg
 

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ishouldbeking

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There seems to be two groups of people, those who don't find the beyer type response a problem and those who like a warmer tuning. I have DT1990s, T1.2s and PSB M4U1...I don't find any of them particularly bright or lacking base. I've had a pair of HP50s at one point but thought they sounded muffled.

It would be interesting to see if the two groups had common characteristics...

I listen a very low volumes, conversation level or a bit lower in a quiet room, and tend to listen for the details in the music...I'm bothered by load noises, I wear ear plugs at the movies. I don't like crowds as I tend to hear every conversation
That's a good point regarding listening volumes. I tend to prefer a warmer tuning and I generally listen at higher listening volumes (not crazy loud, but louder than what some folks describe). The HD6xx/650 sounds very good to me in stock form and even better EQ'd; stock Beyerdynamics are too bright for me, though i like the 770 with paper towel over the driver. I've heard anecdotal reports that folks who prefer lower listening levels rarely get along with the 650/6xx as it it can sound a bit dull, so you may be onto something.
 

bobbooo

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So people don't get confused by basic misunderstandings of the research boldly and erroneously stated as fact in this thread...The below frequency response of the DT990 is Harman's measured frequency response of the actual headphone, not the AKG K712 'replicator' headphone EQed to the DT990 up to 12 kHz - the same goes for the other FR measurements on slides 31-36 of this presentation I linked to previously, and in Appendix 2 of the AES paper it references, clearly entitled 'Headphone Measurements and Error Response Curve' (with no mention of EQed or 'virtualized' headphone measurements here).

index.php


How do we know this is a measurement of the real DT990 and not the 'virtualized' equivalent on the K712? Take a look at comparisons of Harman's real vs virtualized measurements of various headphones below (right, red, and left, blue channels offset by 10 dB for clarity, from here):

Virtual%2BHeadphone%2BMeasurements.jpg


Due to 'not attempting aggressive equalization above 12 kHz' (stated in the above linked paper), the very similar medium to high-Q variations in this upper treble region in the virtualized (solid) curves for each headphone are clearly obvious, indicating they are measurements of the same physical replicator headphone. Contrast this with the quite different responses for each headphone in this >12 kHz region for the real (dashed) curves, of course due to them being measurements of physically different headphones. Now take a look at the frequency response graphs in Appendix 2 of the paper (or here in the presentation), and it's blatantly obvious that they are indeed real measurements of physically distinct headphones, due to their very different responses at frequencies >12 kHz. The claim that these graphs (including the above one of the DT990) are not measurements of the real physical headphones has zero basis.

That cleared up, back to the question of the apparent discrepancy between the high 91/100 rating given by listeners in Harman's blind tests and some users' impressions of the DT990, and it seems my initial suspicion when learning of this surprisingly high rating was correct - the DT990 in Harman's study was a somewhat used pair (Oratory states he was told this), which due to the relatively fast and significant wear and compression of Beyerdynamic's pads over time changing the acoustic properties and so frequency response of the headphone, results in the treble peaks becoming notably subdued. (I still suspect the last couple of factors I mentioned in my previous post - head size, which like wear also affects pad compression, and listening volume, come into play with people's impressions of these headphones too.) Now it could be argued that due to this fast pad wear, Harman's measurements will actually be more representative of the average DT990 owner's pair at any one time, seeing as most users won't be changing pads very frequently. Nevertheless, I don't think any headphone that undergoes such significant changes in sound (and likely comfort) in such a relatively short period of time is a good buy, even if there is an optimum level of 'ageing' at which they sound good. End of story.
 
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kidlouis

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I've always seemed to be treble sensitive so when I bought my DT880s without any knowledge about the cans it was truthfully painful to use them. I used them for 2 years and with the aging they sounded more and more smooth. I changed to new pads (DT990 black velour) and they sound so strange now. Anyone has the same experience?

I have in the studio a spare pair of DT990 that I cannot put near my ears. They were a gift from a friend but they sound so awful!
So now I want to try new cans for mixing that don't pierce my brain. Can somebody give me advice in what headphones should I try to upgrade from my DT880?
 

ishouldbeking

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I've always seemed to be treble sensitive so when I bought my DT880s without any knowledge about the cans it was truthfully painful to use them. I used them for 2 years and with the aging they sounded more and more smooth. I changed to new pads (DT990 black velour) and they sound so strange now. Anyone has the same experience?

I have in the studio a spare pair of DT990 that I cannot put near my ears. They were a gift from a friend but they sound so awful!
So now I want to try new cans for mixing that don't pierce my brain. Can somebody give me advice in what headphones should I try to upgrade from my DT880?
The black pads are known to impact the frequency response a bit, I believe by adding more bass. Haven't tried them myself, but some folks have measured both and compared the differences.

You might appreciate the HD650/6xx (same headphone essentially, but the 6xx is much cheaper through drop.com). More balanced overall than the Beyers, definitely more restrained in the treble (some would say too much, but it's correctable with EQ). They're excellent and one of the most popular recommendations in the headphone community. If you do have the ability to apply parametric EQ, they sound fantastic to my ear.
 

lordhumungous

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I used the Parametric Equalization posted here in Roon with my Dt1990 Pro's ive owned for maybe 2 years and the sound is much brighter and barely listenable. I am usiing a RME adi-dac2 with the headphones . It may have more clarity in the vocals but it kills my ears.
 
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ishouldbeking

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I used the Parametric Equalization posted here in Roon with my Dt1990 Pro's ive owned for maybe 2 years and the sound is much brighter and barely listenable. I am usiing a RME adi-dac2 with the headphones . It may have more clarity in the vocals but it kills my ears.
Pretty sure the 1990 uses a different driver and measures differently than the 990. The profile listed here is for the 990. From what I understand, they both have extremely elevated treble, but the peaks seem to be in different places.
 
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amirm

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I used the Parametric Equalization posted here in Roon with my Dt1990 Pro's ive owned for maybe 2 years and the sound is much brighter and barely listenable. I am usiing a RME adi-dac2 with the headphones . It may have more clarity in the vocals but it kills my ears.
Can you post a snapshot of Roon EQ you are using?
 
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