You are welcome! The good thing about this AVR is that you know if and when you need more juice because of speaker upgrade, moving to a larger space etc., you have the option to pair it with just about any power amp you like, including those with gain as low as 26 dB, knowing that the output will still remain very clean at above 2 V.
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Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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You are welcome! The good thing about this AVR is that you know if and when you need more juice because of speaker upgrade, moving to a larger space etc., you have the option to pair it with just about any power amp you like, including those with gain as low as 26 dB, knowing that the output will still remain very clean at above 2 V.
That, and also as amper42 said, "if the speakers dip below 4ohms or if reference volume levels are desired.", though that only applies if you are actually pushing the internal amps close to the limit.
This calculator should help you find out how close it is to the limit without the help of a high power external amp:
Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)
The example below shows that for near reference level the AVR-X3700H (rated about 100 W average/200W peak) should be do it if you sit from 12 feet and your speaker's sensitivity is 90 dB/2.83V/1m, with 8 ohm nominal impedance. The pre out voltage in this example would be about 1V, and SINAD at that point should be higher than 100 dB. It should theoretical "sound" as good as just about any "external" power amp Amir has measured on ASR. Try find one, other than the AHB2 and those Purifi/Hypex based amps that could match the SINAD/THD+N or the AVR-X3700H and I would like to know.We can argue that THD+N is not the only determining factor, so feel free to compare IMD, FR as well..
Again, if affordability is not the issue, please do get an external amp, but get one that measures better than the Denon and with rated output >200 W into 8 ohms for a 3 dB gain, just to feel good if nothing else.
Got it, thanks! I'm looking to drive Revel F226Be speakers in a mid-sized room with high ceilings. These are fairly sensitive speakers, but would apparently benefit modestly from excess power. I'm considering amps built around HypeX modules, which seem to have plenty of power measure exceptionally well. For all the reasons cited above, it seems like there's not a strong objective case one way or another to go with a 2-channel vs a 5-channel build.
Another reason to consider an external amp is if you are using your AVR to drive a home theater system with many speakers. In a 7.1.4 or even 5.1.4 Atmos system, you are potentially driving 9-11 speakers all at once during peaks. The rated power of an amp is usually for 2 channels driven. It will be much less when all the speakers are going.
Also, you have to keep in mind that using the two presets for two different amplification settings (internal or external) would be quite cumbersome in this case, at least for me. Not only would you have to choose one of the two configurations, you would also have to turn off the equipment and change the speaker output cables, the "presets" would lose all their immediacy. It will depend on how often you require this change, and how affordable the cables and installation are.
I mean if what you think is to use a stereo setup with external amplification for the fronts for music, and another for cinema using another amp and speaker setup, it doesn't make much sense.
You would only have it if you keep the same amplification scheme in both.
You would only have it if you keep the same amplification scheme in both.
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That, and also as amper42 said, "if the speakers dip below 4ohms or if reference volume levels are desired.", though that only applies if you are actually pushing the internal amps close to the limit.
This calculator should help you find out how close it is to the limit without the help of a high power external amp:
Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)
The example below shows that for near reference level the AVR-X3700H (rated about 100 W average/200W peak) should be do it if you sit from 12 feet and your speaker's sensitivity is 90 dB/2.83V/1m, with 8 ohm nominal impedance. The pre out voltage in this example would be about 1V, and SINAD at that point should be higher than 100 dB. It should theoretical "sound" as good as just about any "external" power amp Amir has measured on ASR. Try find one, other than the AHB2 and those Purifi/Hypex based amps that could match the SINAD/THD+N or the AVR-X3700H and I would like to know.
Again, if affordability is not the issue, please do get an external amp, but get one that measures better than the Denon and with rated output >200 W into 8 ohms for a 3 dB gain, just to feel good if nothing else.
View attachment 110516
I'm not sure if I agree with using 3 dB gain from placement to estimate SPL. Wouldn't this only apply to lower frequencies, which is *below* the frequency where sensitivity is rated? In other words, will the speakers be + 3dB in room from 1KHz to 10 KHz for example? My understanding is that this is not the case.
Another factor that underestimates the amount of power required to achieve the desired SPL is that with good room eq, we can almost be assured of 3-6 dB of eq being applied below 3-500 Hz depending on where room correction is limited. So this doubles or quadruples power requirement. This is potentially up to a 9 dB difference with the estimate provided by the SPL calculator. It is my opinion that these are some of the reasons why high sensitivity speakers and/or lots of power are necessary for true, low distortion reference capability. Capability requirement is almost always vastly underestimated. It's so common to hear ZOMG my ears are bleeding at -15 MV it runs me out of the room. But I've been in a fully equipped JTR home theater where reference level was dynamic, powerful, and concussive, but was *not* uncomfortably loud. When I had 86-87 dB bookshelf speakers and a $200 AVR, -10 MV was painfully loud.
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It should theoretical "sound" as good as just about any "external" power amp Amir has measured on ASR. Try find one, other than the AHB2 and those Purifi/Hypex based amps that could match the SINAD/THD+N or the AVR-X3700H and I would like to know.
I have the March Audio P452 Purifi based stereo amplifier. After trying the Purifi and A/B comparing it with the Monolith 200W amp, I prefer the Monolith with the Denon by a significant margin. The Monolith gain is a better match with the Denon and it's a better match with the internal Denon amps.
I initially bought the Purifi based stereo amplifier thinking it might offer better specs and thus better sound. What I found is the Monolith is a much better match. I would only recommend the Purifi if you were going to use them on all channels and that's economically crazy. For the price of one March Audio P452 stereo Purifi you can buy the Monolith 7x200 which is a much better solution for my Denon.
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That's not actually true. You can leave the existing cables and amps in place and switch between preamp mode with one preset and using the same external amp plus internal amps in preset two. It's a matter of one little preset switch. I have done it many times.
Ok let me check if I got this right...
So the AVR's built in amps will only cause worse sound quality in the form of clipping during those rare peaks on movies?
And if one does not hear that typical clipping sound, it means our amps have sufficient power for our speakers and we should stop imagining something is wrong. Correct?
If this is true, then it makes no sense for most to get a power amplifier which will double the spending on top of the AVR cost.
Also I find that it is pretty critical to learn how to EQ and select right settings for your avr and speakers. Perhaps for most people, that should be attempted before considering to spend more on a power amp.
With my DBR62 and in my living room, I found the sound bright and mid bass was softer on the default Reference curve. After I EQed 20hz to a certain point like +2.7db, mid bass and voices sounded richer. I had to increase listening volume more and amp got hotter but everything sounded more balanced and predictable with less shockingly loud bits. Volume increases also have much more subtle effect.
With my DBR62 and in my living room, I found the sound bright and mid bass was softer on the default Reference curve. After I EQed 20hz to a certain point like +2.7db, mid bass and voices sounded richer. I had to increase listening volume more and amp got hotter but everything sounded more balanced and predictable with less shockingly loud bits. Volume increases also have much more subtle effect.
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This is an interesting discussion which touches on a particular issue I can’t get my head around when it comes to measuring amplifiers. There is something that measurements just don’t capture about how amplifiers actually sound in a system. I have Revel f206s in two rooms, one front pair driven by a 150w Yamaha RX-A3080 (with centre and surrounds) and the other pair by an 80w Naim Supernait 2. I thought that the Yamaha was pretty good in stereo pure direct, particularly compared with an AVR-X 3700, but with the same dac source the Naim absolutely annihilates the Yamaha in terms of power, sound quality, bass response, refinement, or any other admittedly subjective qualitative judgement. But I bet the Naim doesn’t measure well. What is it about amplifiers that we don’t seem to be able to measure?
Thanks for the clarification, but it is possible that I did not understand well, or that I did not express myself well.
It is also possible that I am the one who did not understand anything from the translation, but the truth is that there is some confusion.
I have an external amplifier for the front, with a configuration for direct music in stereo and another for multichannel cinema in the two presets, but always using the external amplifier for L / R and the internal amplification for the rest, and I can switch preset on the march, and the change is immediate. Is that what you mean?
What I was trying to say, possibly immersed in my mistranslation of one of the comments, is that you can't have two different amp assignment settings saved in each of the two presets without having to switch cables, one to use internal amplification for all channels, and the other for an external amplification assignment mode.
It can certainly be done by sending two different assignments and calibrations for each preset from the Audyssey app, but you would need to change the wiring every time you decided to use one of the two memories, or it wouldn't work.
That is, in short you cannot have one memory with an external amplification assigned to the front channels or in full preamp mode, and the other memory with an ALL channel configuration driven by internal amplification.
Or what you mean is that it has a double cable exit, from the receiver and from the external amplification, and a switch to direct one or the other to the speakers, and all this without muddying the amplification or the signal?
Pardon the confusion again, but if that's the case and you use it that way, could you please extend the explanation?
Thank you very much.
The Elac DBR62 is an example of a speaker that will do well with a beefy amp. It's more common than not that a quality 200W amp like the Monolith will be helpful with loads like this. This particular speaker is already down almost. -10dB at 50Hz. Rather than boost 20Hz I would use REW to measure the entire FR and see what the room effect is and go from there. If you are just looking for bass boost turn on "Dynamic EQ".
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/
The Naim is known for adding punch to the music presentation. It's a trademark sound for Naim. Music can sound more exciting. Naim is a quality amp that does the job. It can hold it's own with amps rated as having 2-3x more watts.
It sounds like you are over complicating the cabling. There is no need to change cables when moving from preamp mode to 7.1.4 in my system. The Denon pre-outs are live all the time.
Configurations:
Preset #1
1. Denon Front Pre-outs->Monolith 2x200 amp ->Ascend Sierra Tower
(Preamp mode set on for Stereo)
Preset #2
2. Denon Front Pre-outs->Monolith 2x200 amp ->Ascend Sierra Tower +
Denon internal amps used for surrounds and Heights = 7.2.4 Auro-3D, Movies or MultiChannel Stereo.
(11.1 amp assign mode)
No cables are changed during these two Preset modes. It's simply a push of the remote control between the Preset modes. The beauty of the Presets is they remember every setting for each configuration. It's a very powerful feature.
Thanks so much amper42. Yeah I only just realised that I don't need a bass boost but instead can use the Filter Limit on the multiEQ Editor app to get the Room Correction Results looking the way I think I need.
Leave it, we still don't understand each other.
In my previous writings, I only responded to other comments that pointed in another configuration direction that is not valid, at least that is what I understood.
I use the same settings you have pointed out for my 7.2.4, but with the Purifi ET400A for the front, and it is true that the two presets are of great help to quickly switch from stereo music to multichannel cinema.
Thank you
I do see your point, to a point..
I would still say that 3 dB room gain is reasonable, and optional, for a lot of home theaters where subwoofers are typically used. To error on the safe side, I typically (when do it for people who asked..) either use actual measured sensitivity figures or de-rate it by at least 2-3 dB, up to 6-9 dB for Klispch speakers (only those rated >92 dB/2.83V/1m) such as those RP-800F. And I always do it based on one speaker (THX standard). To be even more conservative, yes it can be ignored.Regardless, room gain effects does affect the user, who would naturally adjust the volume control accordingly to get his/her desired spl bass on his/her speaker's in-room response, not anechoic
... After all, the job of the amp is to give the output the speakers need to produce the desired spl in a room. When you measured the spl when listening to music, or movies, you obviously would capture the spl created by the overall sound spectrum without filtering out the low to upper bass frequencies.The 86-87 dB bookshelf speakers and a $200 AVR tells me such a combo may not do very well in maintaining a balanced frequency response for your spl need. For example, f you cranked the volume up loud enough, the speakers may end up producing mostly mids and highs that we are much more sensitive to then we are to the low to upper bass frequencies.
I am not sure what "capability" you are referring to. If it is "amplifier capability", then I wouldn't say it is "almost always.....". It is complicate, as it depends on many factors. I have seen it both ways, a lot of posters do tend to be quick making general statements, such as "most of the time people only use a few watts.....", to "double the power only get you 3 dB spl gain, amps clip much more often than people realize....". I know my amps don't typically output more than 0.25 W average, though I have seen maximum peaks to a little over 50 W when I listened to certain things and felt like listening to 75 dB average or higher from 11 ft. The fact is, if in one of my system I only need 0.2 W average, then I would need 20 W for 20 dB peaks on top, but for someone who needs 2W, then 20 dB peak would bring it to 200 W. So again, hard to say if it is in fact almost always underestimated, the opposite could be true too, I just don't know.
It depends so much on distance, spl desired and the speakers characteristics including FR, impedance, phase angle, sensitivity, maximum spl at 1 meter and maximum power handling capability etc. Your point about Room EQ is another major factor that complicates things even further. Fortunately people who use REQ for movies and music typically have subwoofers so in most cases, the effects of the boost would likely apply to the amps in the active subwoofers. Also, in general I would try my best to avoid boosts, when using Audyssey with the Editor App.
