K5 Pro not enough for Hifiman Sundara?

[lapzoo]

Hey, I basically looked through the whole internet looking for an answer. So I'm asking it here now.

I find that there is a lack of clarity/resolution listening to some rock/metal (the genres I listen most to). But usually only when the songs gets really busy: loud, lots of instruments, cymbals, distorted guitar, all at once. It begins to almost sound "dirty" then. Just very lacking of clarity. I've not found a single person who also has the Sundaras confirming this. Here is a comment I just read again:

"Sundara is not sibilant at all. It's just clear, present, smooth, and neither forward nor recessed compared to the rest of the frequencies. The Sundara is probably the most resolving pair of headphones I've listened to. (The Noble K10U are more resolving, but that's sort of an unfair comparison and arguably a bit artificial in its presentation of detail.)

Technicalities & Final Thoughts

To my ears, the Sundara is neither warm nor cold but straight neutral with very accurate timbre (rare for planars), very low distortion throughout the FR (typical of good planars), no ortho wall (rare for planars), incredible transient response, resolve, imaging, and is the first planar headphone I've heard with above average sound stage that has depth and center in addition to width.

I cannot overstate how resolving the Sundara is. I hear subtle nuances in breaths, strings, and plucks in the background that I never heard on any of my previous cans, sans the K10UA. Yet the detail sounds very naturally retrieved, rather than due to some artificially high treble elevation."

So something must be wrong on my end... could it be my amp? Is what I describe a common problem for sound, if there is too little "headroom"?

 

[solderdude]

My take on the Sundara:

The Sundara sounds slightly ‘lean’ in the bass area. The bass does sound good, well extended and ‘tight’.
The upper mids have a slight coarseness to it. There is a somewhat ‘artificial’ emphasis/sibilance heard with some recordings. Some ‘sharpish edge’ on on voices and instruments.
Dynamics sound a tad ‘compressed’ as in not ‘super dynamic’ as some other headphones manage.

Impedance: 37 Ω
Efficiency: 94 dB/1mW (108 dB/1V)

So with 4V in 37 Ohm = 0.4W you can reach 120dB peak SPL. The Sundara is entry level (a bit like the 400i)

Given that K5 Pro can reach 1W in 32 Ohm it is more than capable.
Some headphones do not play 'nice' at higher levels and very complex music. More expensive models have a tendency to do this better than cheaper models.

 

[twsecrest]

Wild guess.
Could it be the Hifiman Sundara like more current, then what the K5 Pro provides?

 

[F1308]

Hey, I basically looked through the whole internet looking for an answer. So I'm asking it here now.

I find that there is a lack of clarity/resolution listening to some rock/metal (the genres I listen most to). But usually only when the songs gets really busy: loud, lots of instruments, cymbals, distorted guitar, all at once. It begins to almost sound "dirty" then. Just very lacking of clarity. I've not found a single person who also has the Sundaras confirming this. Here is a comment I just read again:

"Sundara is not sibilant at all. It's just clear, present, smooth, and neither forward nor recessed compared to the rest of the frequencies. The Sundara is probably the most resolving pair of headphones I've listened to. (The Noble K10U are more resolving, but that's sort of an unfair comparison and arguably a bit artificial in its presentation of detail.)

Technicalities & Final Thoughts

To my ears, the Sundara is neither warm nor cold but straight neutral with very accurate timbre (rare for planars), very low distortion throughout the FR (typical of good planars), no ortho wall (rare for planars), incredible transient response, resolve, imaging, and is the first planar headphone I've heard with above average sound stage that has depth and center in addition to width.

I cannot overstate how resolving the Sundara is. I hear subtle nuances in breaths, strings, and plucks in the background that I never heard on any of my previous cans, sans the K10UA. Yet the detail sounds very naturally retrieved, rather than due to some artificially high treble elevation."

So something must be wrong on my end... could it be my amp? Is what I describe a common problem for sound, if there is too little "headroom"?

I have not tried Sundaras so far, but here is a link testing them deeply....
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/sundara

Also, as you add instruments, the sound gets clogged.
I play synthesizer and when reaching eight instruments you are to change volumes if you want some clarity and texture; as you call 16 players, different octaves are a must in addition to that volume adjustment, and if each sound is made by combining four waves, each with left and right channels, you are hearing 64 waves on the left and 64 on the right...You are surely not hearing the breathing of the oboe player, nor the fingering of the harpsichord, nor the opening and closing of valves the pipe organ has...Full orchestra will not allow you noticing a train passing by...
Please, be aware of sound level and timing... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.github.sharmanirudh.thresholdsounddetector

 

[flipflop]

So something must be wrong on my end... could it be my amp?

It's your lack of EQ.

 

[solderdude]

Wild guess.
Could it be the Hifiman Sundara like more current, then what the K5 Pro provides?

The K5Pro can easily provide 180mA current = 1.2W = 124dB SPL...obviously there is enough current (and voltage) to f.u. the hearing of the owner.
The issue is the headphone itself and complex waveforms at high SPL. Most likely caused by the not balanced magnetic field.
It's not lightweight and entry level priced for no reason. You can't expect TOTL performance from entry level cans.
You can find glowing reviews about any model you want.
In most cases reviewers received them from manufacturers/importers that they know will give it glowing reviews. It could also be some people really like them or only evaluate with girl & guitar or well recorded jazz etc.

 

[lapzoo]

Some headphones do not play 'nice' at higher levels and very complex music. More expensive models have a tendency to do this better than cheaper models.

Oh noes, so it's the Sundaras. Can someone recommend headphones that sound similar to them? I actually like it with most genres. Unfortunately this lack of clarity in these busy parts I am too often confronted with. So a sound signature similar to those of the Sundaras I'd like, with a bit more clarity. My budget is at $500-700. Maybe the Hifiman Ananda? Or are headphones at this price still considered entry level?

I tried to EQ them since I got them, with no great success. Also tried out oratory1990's preset, that should move it nearer to the Harman curve. That doesn't solve the clarity problem for me unfortunately.

 

[solderdude]

The more expensive HiFimans sound 'similar' but do get better in certain aspects.

I would recommend to have a listen to them before buying (or make sure you can return them) and unleash music on them that 'challenges' it.

 

[flipflop]

I tried to EQ them since I got them, with no great success. Also tried out oratory1990's preset, that should move it nearer to the Harman curve. That doesn't solve the clarity problem for me unfortunately.

Probably just bad recordings then. Have you ever listened to them, with a pair of headphones, where they sounded good?

 

[twsecrest]

Oh noes, so it's the Sundaras. Can someone recommend headphones that sound similar to them? I actually like it with most genres. Unfortunately this lack of clarity in these busy parts I am too often confronted with. So a sound signature similar to those of the Sundaras I'd like, with a bit more clarity. My budget is at $500-700. Maybe the Hifiman Ananda? Or are headphones at this price still considered entry level?
I tried to EQ them since I got them, with no great success. Also tried out oratory1990's preset, that should move it nearer to the Harman curve. That doesn't solve the clarity problem for me unfortunately.

Try the Sundara plugged into a smartphone, see if the sound changes (improves).

 

[lapzoo]

Probably just bad recordings then. Have you ever listened to them, with a pair of headphones, where they sounded good?

Hm... there's got to be a whole lot of bad recordings then. x) No, the Sundara is the best pair I owned so far.

@twsecrest It does sound good from my smartphone. But that doesn't say much I think, since the volume is very low there.

Btw: From the 3 gain stages, I have the K5 Pro set to the highest and at about 65-70% volume, if that matters.

 

[twsecrest]

Hm... there's got to be a whole lot of bad recordings then. x) No, the Sundara is the best pair I owned so far.

@twsecrest It does sound good from my smartphone. But that doesn't say much I think, since the volume is very low there.

Btw: From the 3 gain stages, I have the K5 Pro set to the highest and at about 65-70% volume, if that matters.

Does it sound better, plugged into the smartphone, then the K5 Pro?

 

[Random Variable]

I'd like to chime in, seeing as I just received my own Sundy (coming from a 600 and a range of iems). I run them out of a SMSL SAP II, which is likely less powerful and not nearly as clean as the K5 Pro. While the Sundara does separation fairly well and has decent stage size, as well as imaging, it is no HD 800. If you want truly "great" levels of cleanliness and separation, you will have to go to the around 1k range. A used HD 800 is around that amount and outperforms the Sundara in every regard, especially separation and stage. I also hear good things about the Hifiman Ananda, although I haven't tried it myself. My experience with other headphones indicates that this is just about the best technical performance under 350$, but obviously still not as good as more expensive headphones.

 

[VB119]

I'd like to chime in, seeing as I just received my own Sundy (coming from a 600 and a range of iems). I run them out of a SMSL SAP II, which is likely less powerful and not nearly as clean as the K5 Pro. While the Sundara does separation fairly well and has decent stage size, as well as imaging, it is no HD 800. If you want truly "great" levels of cleanliness and separation, you will have to go to the around 1k range. A used HD 800 is around that amount and outperforms the Sundara in every regard, especially separation and stage. I also hear good things about the Hifiman Ananda, although I haven't tried it myself. My experience with other headphones indicates that this is just about the best technical performance under 350$, but obviously still not as good as more expensive headphones.

Just received my own Sundaras as well and I must admit I'm not yet subjectively impressed. They haven't had the recommended burn in time yet so maybe they'll get better? Running them out of a THX AAA 789 and they sound ok, but a bit thick and muddy to me without a lot of high end finesse. I often find myself giving up and using my Blessing 2 IEMs instead, which I completely adore. The Sundaras are the nicest pair of over ear headphones I've ever had - previously that dubious spot was held by Grados; which I always liked. Perhaps my expectations were just too high for the Sundys? I've been thinking about picking up a pair of of HD800s to see if they get me closer to what I'm looking for, but I'm beginning to wonder if what I'm looking for is in my B2s and I'm just not an over ear headphone kinda guy? Thoughts?

 

[solderdude]

Compared to Grado's all headphones will be sounding thick without high-end finesse.

You could look into Beyerdynamics or AudioTechnica. These will have the treble you have gotten used to.

 

[VB119]

Thanks! I'm a relative noob to audiophile quality headphones. The reading I've been doing online seemed to suggest the HD800s would suit me. Do you think the Beyerdynamics and or Audio Technicas are a better "fit" for me where my tonal preferences are concerned? I know it's all subjective and I really wished I could just listen to them all first, but that doesn't really seem to be an option at the moment.

 

[solderdude]

HD800's are even better but a lot more expensive.

 

[Nango]

My amp delivers 0,3A (with peaks 0,6A) and it is the only one capable to drive planars properly. Try the Sundara with such an amp and it becomes an HD800. Rtings.com rates the Sundara on par with HD800.

 

[VB119]

Oh interesting! Are you suggesting that my Drop THX AAA 789 isn't powerful enough? I have ordered balanced cables for the Sundaras which should effectively double the power this amp delivers (if I understand the specs correctly). I am curious to see if I like it better with more power. I have been running the amp on low gain as to my ears it seems to provide a little more clarity that way - but who am I to know, Perhaps I'll boost it to mid gain and give it some time there.

For a bit more clarity about what I like to hear when listening. I like it when an acoustic double bass sounds like an acoustic double bass when plucked. Which seems a most impossible task for most headphones I've heard. To my ears, they typically get a little to boomy and forceful without really letting the string and the wood come through. My Grados give me some of that wood, but lack body. The Sundaras (so far) make it sound a bit to thick and heavy without my really being able to hear the wood. The attack is good though. I also recognize that a bass is a notoriously difficult instrument to mic, record and mix properly.

And regarding the price of the HD800s. It is a lot, but through a variety of sales and discounts I have accumulated I could likely get a new pair for about $1200. Which is a lot for me and would require selling some stuff, but if they actually delivered what I'm looking for it would be well worth it. If, on the other hand, I am chasing an elusive dream that doesn't really exist, then I'd rather just park right here and enjoy the music. It's a fun sport, but I can't really afford to play for plays sake.

The Blessing 2 IEMs have given me hope though. They sound great and if a pair of over ears could give me that with a little more clean extension in the bass and better sound staging, I'm in!

 

[Nango]

Power (in Watts) is not Current (in Ampere), planars need current, not only power.