Koloth
Active Member
@aarons915
I played some well recorded songs via Tidal ([...] Johnny Cash - Hurt
huh?
@aarons915
I played some well recorded songs via Tidal ([...] Johnny Cash - Hurt
No need to redo the measurements You can just manipulate the measurements you've already taken in REW to get the gated responses. Let us know if you can't work it out, I'm sure we can help.
I'm by no means an expert but I think that you should spend some time working on your room first. You clearly have major interference patterns below 600Hz (as pointed out by sfdoddsy). Can you move the speakers forwards so that they aren't sandwiched between the top and bottom shelves? Can you add a rug to cover the bare wood floor? It might also be worth moving that solid wood table out of the way just as a test.
If all else fails I would recommend moving the Genelec's to your PC (as you said) so that you can enjoy them in the near-field and see what they can really do. You can always sell them on this forum if you still dislike them
Good luck!
Guy
Were both pairs of speakers the same distance from the wall behind them when you took these measurements?
huh?
Yeah the room is not ideal. I planned two actions: Filling the space between my coach and the back wall with mineral wool (~40cm, will help hopefully recognizable with the boomy bass) Putting 5 cm thick absorption material directly behind the speakers to fight the sbir effect somewhere between 200 and 300 Hz.
The minidsp + Dirac will be used to integrate the 2 subs later this week.
I will do measurements without table tomorrow. But the table must stay since I need it there
Regarding the sandwiched speakers: would it help to add absorption material on the bottom and top of the shelfes? Or would the material have to be too thick to have an impact on the interference patterns?
@Tangband I did the measurements you proposed. Microphone perfectly on axis with tweeter - only on loudspeaker - 1m away.
Red Curve: Canton
Blue Curve: Genelec
Results:
View attachment 88290
I am still not sure if I get your point. If I want to optimize / compare two loudspeakers in my specific room scenario and listening position I should not measure at the listening position (and not 1 m away from the loudspeaker)? The microphone in the first picture is only 2m away from the speakers. The room is smaller then it seems.
@napilopez @andreasmaaan @thewas_ Thanks for the great input, I really appreciate it! I will read, think, measure and report back this evening (i am in europe).
The goal is to test which loudspeaker is objectively and subjectively more capable at reproducing music closest to the source / recording in my room setup (4.38m x 3.5m; 2m listening distance; 1.8m distance between LS; not symmetric positioning in room).
Subjectively they sound equally good to me - the higher pitch of the Canton can sound better or worse dependent on the material + a taste for this type of sound or the other can be learned (I think like taste for specific foods) + at the end I can always equalize it via the MiniDSP.
Objectively I conducted since the start of this tread multiple measurements: Sweep with both LS at MLP (seems to be of garbage information value ) + Sweep with only one LS at 1 m on axis. Beside the mainly discussed SPL curve the Canton hold up (or was better) in all measurements. The measurements suggested by napilopez will get interesting since the also take the dispersion behavior into consideration. I started the thread since I was so surprised to see the older and cheaper Canton loudspeakers right on with the so well tested Genelec 8030C. I really want the genelecs to win since I bought them not long ago :,D
Are there other quantifiable metrics beside the spl curve which have a considerable impact on how good the loudspeaker will sound? I looked at distortion - for both its at 81 db @ 1m quiet low with a slightly edge towards the canton (I will go louder this evening). Maybe something in the time domain? Impulse Response, Group delay, ... I am asking since these are metrics which can't be corrected by equalizing (well maybe group delay can also be corrected by dirac).
Everything I will say has already been touched on but here goes.
When testing for what you will actually be hearing at your actual listening position - Use the moving mic method. 1 measurement is pointless, gating of any sort is not for discovering what you are hearing in your room (that is for trying to create an approximate/ rude anechoic response in room). Use the RTA feature and take your measurements at about 100 samples using a window larger than where your head will be. (maybe even larger enough for two heads)
Then you can compare this summed response with the PIR predicted in room response. Unless you like a bright sound or have hearing that is a bit different from normal a flat in room will be bright.
From your measurements for the Canton for me that would likely be very bright and I might be unhappy long term - it might sound great short term but that is not what I need - I need to listen for long periods and love it. (You may love it that way)
Start by measuring one speaker at a time L then R. However with the moving mic method you CAN measure both at once to get a summed power response of the system. Some folks find this is more accurate for them then a single speaker. Phase and comb filtering will be factored out with the moving mic method.
Post you results here of the moving method. One for each channel and them a combined two channel RTA sample. It would be nice to see both 1/48th octave and a psychoacoustic smoothed curve.
By the way there is no reason the Genelec's need to win. If you like the Canton's feel free to gift me the Genelec's... Kidding of course but really if they don't float your boat save that $$. You would be surprised at how much cash I have saved by actually keeping what I like vs what is marketed to me or staying clear of pressure to follow the accepted norms.
By the way what I would do is use the Genelec's for a few solid weeks or a month. Then go back to the Canton's since you already know them well. See what if anything has changed in your preferences now that you have a long term exposure and a more equal psychology toward each unit.
I'd suggested mmm measurements earlier and he posted mmm measurements here
View attachment 88650
@Dominik Kißkalt when you did these measurements, was your coffee table in its usual spot? I'm wondering that's what I'd causing the bump and dip at 1-2k. Very unusual for a genelec so something is causing a particularly adverse reflection.
It's also notable that the same interference patten seems to show up on the Canton, but less aggressively, which makes me think it is a matter of surface reflections. We're the genelecs placed on top of the Canton for this measurement?
I suspect it is a vertical reflection of some sort. The tricky thing is figuring out how much it's actually adversely affecting the sound.
So I measured again and could identify the reason for the 1 kHz dip: Both loudspeakers were standing shoulder to shoulder on a box (to get them both on the same height and the tweeter on ear height). So the genelecs interfered with the Canton. When I removed the Canton the 1 kHz Dip was reduced significantly. But see for yourself:
View attachment 88670
The I made an additional test without the table and compared both constellations:
View attachment 88671
So the table is no baddie?
Any Idea what cause these horrible dips?
Ev. the interference with the lower and upper shelves? I will test with the loudspeaker shifted to the side later.
- 55 Hz -> SBIR ceiling? (1.65 m distance)
- 100 Hz -> SBIR floor? (0.84 m distance)
- 170 Hz -> No idea
- 240 Hz -> SBIR with back wall for sure
- 300 Hz ? -> No idea
At first - change the measurements window to 50 dB , thats the standard for measurements.
Right now you have it on 60 dB.
Put one of the loudspeakers on a loadspeakerstand about 60 cm high in the middle of the room, then measure with the mic with the help of a mic- stand about 1 meter from the loudspeaker, thats about near critical distance in a normal room.
If you use a sine sweep, you must use something called peak-hold .
Everything in a room reflects the sound you are measuring.
You have Amirms reference measurements of 8030c . Compair it with your own measurements. When you measure the loudspeaker in the right way, you will find that the results will be the same as Amirms, or very similar.
One question on this, when your 8030Cs placed 5cm to the rear wall, it seems to have no extra bass boost? or did you use the -4db dip switch as genelec suggested?So I measured again and could identify the reason for the 1 kHz dip: Both loudspeakers were standing shoulder to shoulder on a box (to get them both on the same height and the tweeter on ear height). So the genelecs interfered with the Canton. When I removed the Canton the 1 kHz Dip was reduced significantly. But see for yourself:
View attachment 88670
The I made an additional test without the table and compared both constellations:
View attachment 88671
So the table is no baddie?
Any Idea what cause these horrible dips?
Ev. the interference with the lower and upper shelves? I will test with the loudspeaker shifted to the side later.
- 55 Hz -> SBIR ceiling? (1.65 m distance)
- 100 Hz -> SBIR floor? (0.84 m distance)
- 170 Hz -> No idea
- 240 Hz -> SBIR with back wall for sure
- 300 Hz ? -> No idea
One question on this, when your 8030Cs placed 5cm to the rear wall, it seems to have no extra bass boost? or did you use the -4db dip switch as genelec suggested?
ic, so the genelec recommendation of -4dB and used at distance of 5cm from wall makes sense!No, all switches were on default. Room correction or equalizing was also disabled.
If you look closely in my first graph of this thread the bass is boosted by 3-4 db in the 5 cm position in comparison to the 20 cm position.
Just saying, ended up how do you place the 8030Cs and with dip switches?No, all switches were on default. Room correction or equalizing was also disabled.
If you look closely in my first graph of this thread the bass is boosted by 3-4 db in the 5 cm position in comparison to the 20 cm position.