Harbeth 30.2 vs kef R3

[Pjetrof]

Question for the more engineered experienced under us.
After discovering this forum and reading a lot and testing what I read.
I m a believer what this forum predict.
Measurements!
Does this also count for speakers.
In blind testing will the kef r3 sounds better than the other passive speakers reviewed by Amir?
A speaker is also an electronic device or do I see it wrong?
i have 30.2 harbeth, the harbeth reviewed her measure worse than the kef.
In blind testing will most prefer the kef?

 

[tuga]

Question for the more engineered experienced under us.
After discovering this forum and reading a lot and testing what I read.
I m a believer what this forum predict.
Measurements!
Does this also count for speakers.
In blind testing will the kef r3 sounds better than the other passive speakers reviewed by Amir?
A speaker is also an electronic device or do I see it wrong?
i have 30.2 harbeth, the harbeth reviewed her measure worse than the kef.
In blind testing will most prefer the kef?

Unless one is evaluating performance (identifying shortcomings), sounding better or worse is a matter of personal taste and depends on the listener.
The Kef R3 is technically a better speaker in most aspects of performance but may not sound better to you, and that is ultimately what matters most.
And the only way for you to find out if it sounds better to you is by listening, preferably in your room with your system and favourite music.

The M30 tested here is the original version, yours is the second of two ensuing revisions.

 

[avanti1960]

Question for the more engineered experienced under us.
After discovering this forum and reading a lot and testing what I read.
I m a believer what this forum predict.
Measurements!
Does this also count for speakers.
In blind testing will the kef r3 sounds better than the other passive speakers reviewed by Amir?
A speaker is also an electronic device or do I see it wrong?
i have 30.2 harbeth, the harbeth reviewed her measure worse than the kef.
In blind testing will most prefer the kef?

Having heard both speakers extensively I preferred the Harbeths- by a lot.
There are attributes of a speaker that cannot be measured yet.
We can measure their response over the audible range and see how it deviates from a signal of known quantity. We can measure the resonances of the enclosure. We can measure the polar response and harmonic distortion. We can measure their sensitivity to input voltage.
While those measurements are valid and often predictors of how the speaker will sound and what tendencies they may have, they still are not resolute enough to give us the complete picture.
In application the Harbeths sounds smoother, more natural to voice and music, tone and timbre seem lifelike and accurate. I could live with these speakers.
The KEFs sounded coherent with excellent imaging but not very natural. Bass was very good and the treble seemed clear but occasionally exaggerated and metallic sounding. The midrange was occasionally somewhat congested and recessed. I personally could not own them.

 

[Pjetrof]

Having heard both speakers extensively I preferred the Harbeths- by a lot.
There are attributes of a speaker that cannot be measured yet.
We can measure their response over the audible range and see how it deviates from a signal of known quantity. We can measure the resonances of the enclosure. We can measure the polar response and harmonic distortion. We can measure their sensitivity to input voltage.
While those measurements are valid and often predictors of how the speaker will sound and what tendencies they may have, they still are not resolute enough to give us the complete picture.
In application the Harbeths sounds smoother, more natural to voice and music, tone and timbre seem lifelike and accurate. I could live with these speakers.
The KEFs sounded coherent with excellent imaging but not very natural. Bass was very good and the treble seemed clear but occasionally exaggerated and metallic sounding. The midrange was occasionally somewhat congested and recessed. I personally could not own them.

do you own harbeths?

 

[NoDad]

I upgraded from KEF R300 to Harbeth 30.1. I thought the midrange of the KEF's was too forward. They sounded great initially, but after owning them for a longer period, I got listening fatigue during longer listening sessions. This has totally disappeared with the 30.1's.

Now, the R3 may be a better speaker than the R300, but I would make sure to listen to them over an extended period before switching.

 

[Pjetrof]

For the moment I don’t want to change speakers I m very happy with my speakers.
the question is more in the trend amplifiers and DACs are inaudible in a DBT. So the best measured one will be the best.
is this true for speakers as well?

 

[Darvis]

For the moment I don’t want to change speakers I m very happy with my speakers.
the question is more in the trend amplifiers and DACs are inaudible in a DBT. So the best measured one will be the best.
is this true for speakers as well?

No, speakers are easily set apart during a DBT. What DBT have shown though is that once you don't know the prices of what you're hearing the differences decrease

 

[Ron Texas]

Chasing the numbers is a path to unhappiness and a smaller bank account. Remember, a little bit of EQ goes a long way.

 

[Pjetrof]

Chasing the numbers is a path to unhappiness and a smaller bank account. Remember, a little bit of EQ goes a long way.

i m not chasing numbers
cant explain my question think the translation is not correct.

maybe the better question would be
but it’s already answered
does what is written about electronics the measurement etc and the ABX/Dbt testing thus this count as well for speakers.

 

[Ron Texas]

i m not chasing numbers
cant explain my question think the translation is not correct.

maybe the better question would be
but it’s already answered
does what is written about electronics the measurement etc and the ABX/Dbt testing thus this count as well for speakers.

According to the research listeners in a controlled environment, volume matched and blind tested will show a preference for the speaker which has a higher preference score. This is repeatable. It doesn't mean you will be any happier if you buy a pair of R3's.

Remember, if a speaker doesn't have flat frequency response on axis, that can usually be fixed with EQ. So equalized the speaker will measure higher, sometimes much higher.

 

[Pjetrof]

Thx that was the answer I was looking for.
so it’s the same like the other charts.
even that this forum says anything above 80 sinad is inaudible in blind testing.
but the benchmark is the best measured even it’s inaudible.
for speakers if we make a chart with preference rating based on measurement is it then right to assume inn blind testing the speaker with highest preference ratings sound best?
speakers don’t make me happy, they have to reproduce music.

 

[Koeitje]

For the moment I don’t want to change speakers I m very happy with my speakers.
the question is more in the trend amplifiers and DACs are inaudible in a DBT. So the best measured one will be the best.
is this true for speakers as well?

No, all speakers sound different.

 

[avanti1960]

do you own harbeths?

yes sir, loving them. model SHL5+

 

[avanti1960]

For the moment I don’t want to change speakers I m very happy with my speakers.
the question is more in the trend amplifiers and DACs are inaudible in a DBT. So the best measured one will be the best.
is this true for speakers as well?

DBT is problematic for an evaluation of any component, especially speakers.
Even the best speakers can sound different or non-optimized depending upon positioning- toe angle, stand height, stand type, distance from back wall, side wall, etc. We go to great lengths (at least I do) to optimize the position of my speakers within my room.
Different speakers have different requirements for amplification too- some have the difficult combination of high amplitude negative phase angle combined with low impedance. feed them with an incapable amplifier and they will not sound their best.
If you are in the audiophile realm- or are serious about the sound you hear when you listen to music- it makes no sense to trust or put value in DBT data.

 

[MattHooper]

DBT is problematic for an evaluation of any component, especially speakers.
Even the best speakers can sound different or non-optimized depending upon positioning- toe angle, stand height, stand type, distance from back wall, side wall, etc. We go to great lengths (at least I do) to optimize the position of my speakers within my room.
Different speakers have different requirements for amplification too- some have the difficult combination of high amplitude negative phase angle combined with low impedance. feed them with an incapable amplifier and they will not sound their best.
If you are in the audiophile realm- or are serious about the sound you hear when you listen to music- it makes no sense to trust or put value in DBT data.

Hi Avanti. I recognize you from some other forums. (I used to own the Harbeth SuperHL5plus and loved them). Good to see you here.
This forum isn't exactly like the other ones

 

[Pjetrof]

No, all speakers sound different.

and electronics?

 

[Pjetrof]

and electronics?

and why?

I understand different speaker box vs planar

or like harbeth vs non resonant box

but two similars same amount and same drivers will they sound different?

 

[Koeitje]

and electronics?

After a certain point they all sound the same. For D/A conversion that point is reached easily, for amplification it takes a bit more.

 

[Pjetrof]

After a certain point they all sound the same. For D/A conversion that point is reached easily, for amplification it takes a bit more.

i m ass well addicted to fun and learning
concerning electronics dac and amp what is the point can we say sinad chart for dac 100 for amp 80
and for speakers ?

 

[ttimer]

According to the research listeners in a controlled environment, volume matched and blind tested will show a preference for the speaker which has a higher preference score. This is repeatable. It doesn't mean you will be any happier if you buy a pair of R3's.

for speakers if we make a chart with preference rating based on measurement is it then right to assume inn blind testing the speaker with highest preference ratings sound best?

Not necessarily. The score is based on average listener preference. This means that more listeners will like a higher scoring speaker. It does not mean that every listener will like a higher scoring speaker.

The preference score is a perfect tool for commercial manufacturers who want to sell as many speakers as possible. It is not perfect (though helpful) for the individual buyer.