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Harbeth 30.2 vs kef R3

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Pjetrof

Pjetrof

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To all.
The question or exercise I was trying to do can we use science to choose our speaker with objective measurements.
i know speakers react in a room, but all speakers react in a room, if That can’t be measured, what will be then the reason why we buy this or that speakers there are thousands and probably more speakers in all different price classes.
For electronics it’s easy we have the sinad charts and budget, how do we choose the speaker?
 

Darvis

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Why not making a short list of speakers that measure well, from brands still lead by engineers over PowerPoint warriors, and then try to test those?
 

CDMC

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i m sorry I m not an engineer but do I read your response right, that same like amp and dac a speaker can be measured?

so in an open place where there are no walls or a room that not interact with the speaker, is it correct to say the best measurement speaker is the best. The only thing we can’t measure is how a speaker interact with a room.
what I find difficult to believe why would for example a worse measured speaker sound better in a specific room then a better measured speaker in that room.
cause we can adjust the sound with eq or adjust the room with room correction.

Using an equalizer to adjust the sound can be problematic. In farfield listening (what most is), the majority of sound is from reflected sounds. The frequency response at the listening position is a combination of the direct sound and reflected. If you have a speaker that has wide dispersion off axis that is the same as the on axis responses, using an equalizer will be effective. If you have a speaker that has a differing response off axis, equalizing will not help much.

This White Paper by Dr. Geddes give an in depth explanation.

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf
 
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Pjetrof

Pjetrof

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Using an equalizer to adjust the sound can be problematic. In farfield listening (what most is), the majority of sound is from reflected sounds. The frequency response at the listening position is a combination of the direct sound and reflected. If you have a speaker that has wide dispersion off axis that is the same as the on axis responses, using an equalizer will be effective. If you have a speaker that has a differing response off axis, equalizing will not help much.

This White Paper by Dr. Geddes give an in depth explanation.

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf
Thx will have a read
 

Absolute

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The question or exercise I was trying to do can we use science to choose our speaker with objective measurements.
i know speakers react in a room, but all speakers react in a room, if That can’t be measured, what will be then the reason why we buy this or that speakers there are thousands and probably more speakers in all different price classes.
For electronics it’s easy we have the sinad charts and budget, how do we choose the speaker?
Well, yes. This was the whole point of the research of Dr. Toole.
Also the reason for Amir's purchase of the Klippel machine. Watch this if you haven't read the book.

 
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Pjetrof

Pjetrof

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Well, yes. This was the whole point of the research of Dr. Toole.
Also the reason for Amir's purchase of the Klippel machine. Watch this if you haven't read the book.

Thx will do
 
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Pjetrof

Pjetrof

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Well, yes. This was the whole point of the research of Dr. Toole.
Also the reason for Amir's purchase of the Klippel machine. Watch this if you haven't read the book.


Seen the video, very interesting got no reason to disbelief this video.
This video for me answers my question, even people are talking in their replies about 2D and 3D, this video shows we can measure speakers, and can list them by good to bad. So ass well for speakers science and blind testing count.
That is the conclusion I make out this video. Pleased
if I understood it wrong, my English is not that good, Put me right. Thx
 

Absolute

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Seen the video, very interesting got no reason to disbelief this video.
This video for me answers my question, even people are talking in their replies about 2D and 3D, this video shows we can measure speakers, and can list them by good to bad. So ass well for speakers science and blind testing count.
That is the conclusion I make out this video. Pleased
if I understood it wrong, my English is not that good, Put me right. Thx
You understood it correctly. Science can indeed be used to pick an objectively good speaker on measurements alone.

It's easy to be confused reading through the latest discussions because we're discussing what the measurements shown by Dr. Toole/Spinorama can and cannot tell us. There's an agreement among most of us that the Spinorama cannot tell us what is the best sounding speaker among two very good speakers as defined by the Spinorama and Sean Olive's preference formula.

The reason for that could be that the research focused on separating good from bad speakers, not on defining the very best (impossible).
It could be that the measurements somewhere along the line becomes far more sensitive to minute details in the frequency response than our ears and/or that our ears are picking up on other stuff not focused on in the research - like sensitivity for distortion once the tonal balance is equal enough.

There's not enough evidence yet to say that all you need for a speaker to be excellent is a good Spinorama, but there's ample evidence to say that a speaker that performs poorly on Spinorama is not a good speaker. (Stole these words from Kevin Voecks - Head of Acoustics at Harman/Revel).

Here's what to pay most attention to;

1. Frequency response on-axis and off-axis should be smooth. Smooth = no resonances. Resonances = very bad!

2. Directivity (Sound Power DI in the graph). Smooth directivity means that the sound will be the same everywhere you sit/move your head and it means that both the direct sound and indirect/reflected sound will have the same tonality. Plus it means the speaker can be EQ'd successfully.

3. Bass extension. This will tell you whether or not you will have enough oomph to fully enjoy the power of music.

Harman ANSI-CEA-2034 example from 2018.jpg
 

Absolute

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My personal opinion is, of course, that the speakers should be considered in the same manner as electronic devices and just measure as perfectly as possible. Speakers are not meant to produce its own art, the music is the art. The only objective for a speaker is to convert the electronic signal to acoustical waves as perfect as possible.
Very measurable and the simplest and most logical solution where the only variables should be desired SPL capability, dispersion to suit the room/need/desire and design.

What we need for this to be possible is more research into the more esoteric stuff like what we are discussing on the forum now, various forms of distortions and their audibility. Once defined and settled we can start to demand and build speakers that aim for very specific goals in all relevant areas.

For now it is assumed that any speaker must be a compromise between different priorities and can therefore never be perfect in all relevant areas at the same time. Can't say if that's the case - and neither can anyone else at this time.

In my humble opinion.
 

MattHooper

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The question or exercise I was trying to do can we use science to choose our speaker with objective measurements.

My view is that: It depends.

I mean, in a broad sense anyone and everyone can use science to choose a speaker. As people have indicated, a lot of science has been done showing the type of loudspeaker response most people are going to like (in blind tests). So you can always just seek speakers with suitable measurements, and there you go. Done.

However, whether this approach is appealing, or actually works for choosing a speaker is ultimately more of an individual thing.

For me buying strictly on measurements doesn't work. They have not predicted for me which speakers I would actually like when I listen to them (under sighted conditions). Now, some people are constituted to say "Well, I'm looking for accuracy, so as long as it's accurate, I'm good."
Or "I trust the science behind these speakers, so I can just relax and enjoy them." That works for some people, but not for me (and some others).
What counts for me is whether I'm actually enthusiastic about what I'm hearing. I've listened to numerous speakers that would fit within the paradigm many here are seeking; sometimes I liked them, sometimes I was left cold. So, I have to listen for myself.

Further, I've had a life-long interest in live vs reproduced sound, so I'm constantly comparing the two. I favor systems that, to my brain, remind me more of the real thing, especially timbrally. When I close my eyes and listen to an acoustic guitar, especially mine, it creates a certain impression or vision in my mind, a sort of golden sparkly strings, the warmth of the wood. But when I listen to an acoustic guitar like mine through many speakers, the mental impression becomes like the color is "off," or like it's in black and white. It's devoid of the beauty I hear in the real thing. But some speaker systems DO seem to recreate some of the "right" impressions in my brain. And it is those ones that I find compelling, the ones that make me want to sit and listen, where others make me want to just walk away.

Now, this all may be a mesh of my own quirks and biases, and even perhaps some actual true perceptiveness on my part. The problem is: I don't know. The best science we have was not directed at verifying my perceptions - it was directed at verifying what most people will say they prefer (not specifically "does it sound like the real thing?" or quirky things like "does the guitar sound timbrally right?" etc).

That's not to say it couldn't be studied; of course it could. But it wasn't. And to a degree it would be possible to vet some of my own impressions via the blind tests used at the Harman Kardon facilities. I could blind test speakers and ask myself "does that guitar/voice produce that 'rightness' of timbre or not?" And perhaps discover which ones reliably do that for me.

But, I don't have access to such facilities to go through those tests, nor can I do it at home. The best I've been able to do is to test various speakers with my own recordings of instruments and voices I know, and sometimes do live vs reproduced comparisons. And just use my own subjective reactions when auditioning speakers. It's certainly worked out well so far. I have owned numerous speakers that I find really satisfying.

So, just due to my own quirky history and interests and biases, thus far working strictly off of measurements won't work for me. I have really liked some neutral speakers, found some left me a bit cold, and sometimes liked colored speakers. I need to hear a speaker to determine if I find it compelling.
 

Willem

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And mind you: unlike with electronics the science itself is not crystal clear. One could just as well argue that the variety of opinions shows that the science is not settled. Do not forget it is principally an opinion poll.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Kef's change a lot his brightness off axis, so if you want less bright just play with the axis, i will prefer a technnically superior speaker, you can change the tonalty but no the technnical part, my R300 on axis sound bright a little bright, but i changed a little the axis and now they sound smooth with thier excellent technnical hability for the price. Very realistic sound, 0 metallic tone here.
 
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landco

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This work thus busts the common audio myth of different sound of membrane materials that is not described by the usual metrics like frequency response, radiation pattern and distortions, although on the other hand in real life two or more drivers with same FR and identical radiation pattern don't really exist.

Tell me please, I understand correctly what does this apply to the AMT (planar) tweeters?
 

thewas

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Tell me please, I understand correctly what does this apply to the AMT (planar) tweeters?
Why not, AMT or generally planar tweeters mainly differ in their radiation pattern due to their geometry.
 

jonfitch

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Soft dome tweeters tend to sound a lot different from metal dome tweeters as well. A speaker engineer once told me metal tweeters can be constructed much flatter than soft domes and end up having much better high frequency dispersion as a result. That may be what gives metal tweeters their "metallic sound", i.e, just more energy above 5k with a 1" tweeter in-room typically.
 

thewas

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Soft dome tweeters tend to sound a lot different from metal dome tweeters as well. A speaker engineer once told me metal tweeters can be constructed much flatter than soft domes and end up having much better high frequency dispersion as a result. That may be what gives metal tweeters their "metallic sound", i.e, just more energy above 5k with a 1" tweeter in-room typically.
Yes, many soft domes break up already in the audible region (just not with a sharp resonance like the hard ones) and start then beaming more.
 

avanti1960

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The question or exercise I was trying to do can we use science to choose our speaker with objective measurements.
i know speakers react in a room, but all speakers react in a room, if That can’t be measured, what will be then the reason why we buy this or that speakers there are thousands and probably more speakers in all different price classes.
For electronics it’s easy we have the sinad charts and budget, how do we choose the speaker?
not me. you might be able to get reasonably close if you can reliably correlate measurement data to speakers you have heard or owned but there are too many factors involved to be sure.
in all things audio, listening is key.
 
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