Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Doodski]

the exodus of companies from consumer audio continues.

Due to the personal computer. Not due to reviews and news.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

The larger reason of concern is the degredated performance compared to the X3600H. Because yes, I would believe most people that own this won’t hear any issues.

If the 2021 model of supercar (Bugatti, McLaren, etc.) had a lower top speed, don’t you think it is reasonable for car enthusiasts and magazines to point it out? 99% of the owners are driving them in metros and never go above 100, so it doesn’t really matter to them, but does the addition of QI wireless chargers built-in and a more response touch screen offset this)? Mottos are usually “New and Improved” not “New and Different”.

I do agree it is reasonable if you also were to report it didn't really change the enjoyment of driving said super car for 99% of owners due to their own driving habits. That seems like a happy medium of reporting facts with real world context.

 

[MZKM]

reporting facts with real world context.

While not captured in this review, Amir is of the stance of not wanting a gray area. You can’t for certain say that these issues are inaudible, as while some studies have used music and have documented audible thresholds, there is no standard way to represent music, test tones are much easier to hear distortions with, I think Amir has shown he could hear differences at -120dBFS (110dB for 0dBFS, thus -10dB, which is shown as a threshold of audibility in the Fletcher Munson curves / Equal Loudness Contours).

Since there is a gray zone, is it not worthwhile to strive for absolute performance, to lessen concern?

Would you drink water if it was advertised as having acceptable levels of Lead and Mercury?

 

[Angsty]

Kudos @Skylarlove1999 , you’ve put out an olive branch (and I’m being sincere).

‘Now, onto your point, Amir has only recently begun reviewing AVRs. DACs were the primary reviews earlier, and companies like Schitt have gone from “headless Panthers” to top-rated. They are now so proud of their products, they are sending them in for review.

Once AVR manufacturers realize they are losing out sales to well-measured rivals, they will begin making better products. I’m sure of it.

Even I can acknowledge when an olive branch is extended.

But, I think the question is valid about why an AVR should measure so poorly. It smells of a lack of engineering (and consumer-imposed) accountability. Schiit managed to fix their Modi without increasing the price. That improvement was enough to convince me to buy the Modi 3 instead of the D30.

I’ll likely be buying a new AV system in the next couple of years. I won’t be buying anything which measures poorly.

 

[jaatre]

With the 3600H, you can use the amp assign to power 2 channels, which can be your fronts for instance, but if you do 3 external amps, 1 internal amp will still be in use.

If you get an amp that has an input sensitivity of day 1.5Vrms or lower, it’s not a concern. To my knowledge though, most Hypex amps are 2Vrms or higher, meaning the 1 channel that still has the internal amps active will have higher distortion than the other 2.

Just to confirm, if I use Hypex based amps for 3 ch duty, it's better to power rest of the channels externally as well so that overall distortion is kept to a minimum, right?
Another option is to power LCR with something like Emotiva or Outlaw audio amps and leave the rest to be handled by the AVR amps?

 

[jaatre]

Baloney, what measures did you take to ensure a honest listening test? How closely did you match levels? Did you use DBT conditions to eliminate any possible bias?

I tried this today on my 2400H and did a DBT with a few friends as well. Playing music content from TV (YouTube) over HDMI vs streaming the same tracks via inbuilt Spotify or Tidal streamers makes a really huge difference. Yes, we can blame the youtube compression to our heart's content, but non HDMI content clearly had more sound output, dynamics and bass extension compared to the HDMI based source.
*Edit: I forgot to mention that the tracks played for the DBT were at same volume levels on the AVR.
If a newbie to the audio world can hear the difference, you Sir, can surely discern it better

 

[Thomas savage]

Olive branch.., Amirm needs a back rub !

Do we have a volunteer?

 

[Thomas savage]

Interesting posts from him. Classic defense with no counter information. He just post this:

View attachment 69751

Happy to: https://www.similarweb.com/website/audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 69750

Yea but 900 000 of them are just here for my jokes and Amirm bashing

 

[RootsMagoots]

The measurements are all well and good, but Amir never answers the most important question: How is the AVR's PRAT? Does it make you want to tap your feet to the beat or sit down ponder life's mysteries?

On the real, Denon wake up. I need an HDMI 2.1 AVR and you just played yourself. Topping, if you're listening, please make an AVR.

 

[Voo]

most avr's are good enough for tv/movies. however, for music I dont find them impressive.

 

[North_Sky]

We gonna need a bigger boat, and more masks ...

 

[North_Sky]

I bought my first Denon audio product back in 1987, 33 years ago.
And after that some more Denon products, including AVRs.
I had excellent relations with Denon customer service people.
My first CD player went caput after I don't know exactly how many years.

Today everything that is in the past is dissolved more because of the new world we live in since 2020. It is not the same the music and movies impact. I don't know if anyone else noticed ...

Anyway life goes on and we can only do the best we can, and relearn as we go.
All the hatred in the world won't do anything, zero.
So why just take it as it comes and accept it for what it truly is.
The 4700 ...

I'd rather have the truth because it's constructive, than lies because it's destructive.
We are here because we want to build a better world for everyone, not because we want to get rich selling lies.

Because music matters

 

[ace_xp2]

Blasphemy LOL. Measurements are how all these people who never created a product in their life justify their importance and existence. Those who create do. Those who can't measure other people's creations.

Actually, as these measurements point out, those who can't also do nonetheless create. Which is why the measurements are ultimately required.

Furthermore the demise of substandard companies is no loss, but a gain. In the incredibly unlikely event Denon were to go under due to this botched effort, so much the better for the vacuum created and space now available for those who can remember to measure a thing or two.

 

[Promit]

If you're going to take the position that the performance of one of these AVRs is adequate for its intended use, and/or not audibly bad in program material, well that's your call to make. Certainly the manufacturers seem to believe that's the case. But then people seem to feel that measuring these products at all is a waste of time and that's baffling. We're not talking about some Walmart soundbar here. These are high end AV products costing multiple thousands of dollars and making very bold claims about their audio performance. We've seen everything ranging from generally poor performance to actual implementation problems that manufacturers have fixed in response to the analysis work here. We've also learned that contrary to what thousands of reviews and forum threads have claimed over decades, you do not always get what you pay for and separates regularly do not produce the expected performance benefits. This is actual critical information.

Frankly, I don't appreciate it one bit when the "two channels are all that matter" crowd barge in here complaining that as long as a $2000 AVR makes sound we're good to go because movies are whatever. I don't appreciate the suggestion that I should have a second signal chain to listen to music. And some people seem to believe that what needs a review most is yet another barely mass market integrated stereo amplifier whose design and feature set is identical to that first one some boomer lusted over in high school but now with wireless.

I have to say though, I really wish we would get Amir's level of detail in testing, but for all-channel operation. That's the one thing where I feel that the measurements fail to describe the actual real world usage of these products.

 

[restorer-john]

I don't appreciate the suggestion that I should have a second signal chain to listen to music.

Why not? There's always been 2 channel purists and surround aficionados from day one. Surround was always a poor cousin and just a gimmicky thing from the very first Dolby surround matrix processors/amplifiers sold for people to add-on a set of rear speakers and "decode" the surround track embedded in stereo movie soundtracks. It's still a whizz-bang, impress your friends with explosions, tacky experience, from the faux cinema light strips on the carpet, to the hideous cinema chairs and the Hollywood hills wallpaper and popcorn machines. Some of the installations I've seen are just putrid.

Originally, all that was needed was small bandwidth limited surround or presence speakers driven by a low powered amplifier (mono). Then along came steering logic (Pro-logic) DTS, DD etc and amplifier channels exploded in numbers. Still, AV and AVRs were a poor cousin to real HiFi. They still are. They get obsoleted so fast it makes your head spin.

With the surround formats changing faster than I change my underpants, why anyone would invest vast sums in giant AVRs or AV amps is beyond me.

My 2ch music systems are for music. They never get obsoleted- ever. My TV/Movie sound is a completely different setup. It does the job and that's all I care about. We don't need our bowels ruptured by subwoofers reproducing battlescenes in the loungeroom- that's for kids. The systems never meet and likely never will. I like it that way. The day I play a movie soundtrack over my 2 channel music system is the day I sell it all and buy a Bose soundbar (do they make one?).

 

[amirm]

I have to say though, I really wish we would get Amir's level of detail in testing, but for all-channel operation. That's the one thing where I feel that the measurements fail to describe the actual real world usage of these products.

I can test more channels but it is not common for all of them to be whaling at the same time. But sure, if everyone feels strongly about this, and can donate money if I blow one of these up (!), I can test more active channels.

 

[Voo]

I can test more channels but it is not common for all of them to be whaling at the same time. But sure, if everyone feels strongly about this, and can donate money if I blow one of these up (!), I can test more active channels.

I dont even like playing my avr's at reference cause they get so freaking hot....over 120+F up to 140F...marantz says 115F is max(lol maybe just powered on)...yes my home has ac....

 

[Mittomen]

3 years is a long time? LOL. What are Amir's credentials that you guys all think he walks on water. Just curious.

You could have done your research before your first post, couldn't you?
Now, look at that horrible multitone test - that's a test tone that's said to best resemble real music. I am not sure that it can't be heard, or that is an appropriate performance of a 1700$ AVR in 2020.
edit- unlike many others, at least you had balls to acknowledge Amir's work and intentions. To be constructive (as polmuaddib suggests), you could take the message back to where it is appropriate to change the situation for better.

 

[Promit]

I can test more channels but it is not common for all of them to be whaling at the same time. But sure, if everyone feels strongly about this, and can donate money if I blow one of these up (!), I can test more active channels.

I was thinking more for THD/SINAD/linearity than ultimate power output. While it would be nice to know what all-channel power actually is, I don't think it's worth testing to destruction. The reason is this line in the Emotiva A-500 review:

I could not get the amplifier to distort less than 0.1% with 4 channels regardless of output level. So I stepped that up to 0.2% to get the third graph.

That to me seemed to nullify the importance of any test preceding it, because who is buying those to run stereo? That's a massive deviation in performance when used as intended.

 

[polmuaddib]

Are we still going to waste pages with Skylarlove1999 and replying to him? I just skipped through 5 pages because i see his posts. I want to read something constructive. Please, just ignore. He just wants to fight no matter the argument. No reasoning.