Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

[GelbeMusik]

And no, I'm not going to finance a study.

@snurf, You too. I wasn't asking for finance. You should do the investigation You long for so desperately: By Your Own.

Design a study. Make sure it complies to scientific standards. Discuss with peers. Publish results. It is on You alone. Because im deeply afraid most of science is actually not interested in Your doubts regarding sound re-production for Your personal pleasing with "critical listening".

I'm also wondering if ... Opinions and anecdotes from former employees in the speaker driver industry would of course be ideal. Comments from those guys would shed much needed light on this topic. I'm a bit surprised not hearing any comments from one.

Maybe this hot topic made into the non-disclosure agreement, a life long?

 

[snurf]

@snurf, You too. I wasn't asking for finance. You should do the investigation You long for so desperately: By Your Own.

Design a study. Make sure it complies to scientific standards. Discuss with peers. Publish results. It is on You alone. Because im deeply afraid most of science is actually not interested in Your doubts regarding sound re-production for Your personal pleasing with "critical listening".

I was actually not going to write any more comments, but I will write one more just for you.

From Tech Stuff Tuesday - Subwoofer break in myth busted

Full excursion must be realized for 'break-in'. He also claims the coil needs to be broken in and discusses the differences between round wire and flat wire.

From here he discusses spiders and why they needs to be broken in. The six layer spider would presumably be harder to break in than the three layer since it seems to be very stiff.

Conclusion

From the author of the video in the comments: 'I've had people tell me they spent MONTHS ramping up power little by little, week after week. Everything but the last 2 weeks of it were basically wasting time.'

So one might experience 'break-in' when one or several criteria has been met. The spider seems to be the most important piece of the 'break-in' myth. I've read that most people never go louder than 90dB so it might be plausible that some people experience 'break-in'.

These are of course opinions. Opinions usually don't stand up to scrutiny, but facts do.

Edit: When he discusses the spiders he shows how the spiders partially break in, from inner to the outer rings. The dynamics would probably be clipped before break-in

 

[GelbeMusik]

I was actually not going to write any more comments, but I will write one more just for you.

From Tech Stuff Tuesday - Subwoofer break in myth busted

< some youtube media >

Conclusion

From the author of the video in the comments: ... " ... "


it might be plausible that some people experience 'break-in'.

These are of course opinions. Opinions usually don't stand up to scrutiny, but facts do.

Second hand opinions, no first hand investigation. From Youtube again; the first was a "revealed" video. There is so much busted and revealed, and all in conflict to each other.

So, what to conclude? It is a chitchat topic. We quote Youtube videos and request A-B testing blind, due to science.

The six layer spider would presumably be harder to break in than the three layer since it seems to be very stiff.

Yepp, they are 'broken in' individually, aren't they? Presumably.

 

[snurf]

Yepp, they are 'broken in' individually, aren't they? Presumably.

Yes, and the presumed difference of the fabric, thread thickness, structure, coating etc.

 

[GelbeMusik]

o/k, You investigate

 

[Lsc]

Do we have any audio engineers in this thread?

Has anyone on this thread worked at speaker design labs and have verified technical publications?

anecdote seems to a popular word around here. Thank you all for citing other people’s work!!!

Unless we have professionals in the field- not marketing or product guys (like me), engineers who have been trained in the audio arts , if so please step up and squash this once and for all.

 

[Twitch54]

Do we have any audio engineers in this thread?

Has anyone on this thread worked at speaker design labs and have verified technical publications?

anecdote seems to a popular word around here. Thank you all for citing other people’s work!!!

Unless we have professionals in the field- not marketing or product guys (like me), engineers who have been trained in the audio arts , if so please step up and squash this once and for all.

17 pages long and counting, tell me once again what it is that needs 'squashing' ??

 

[NTK]

Do we have any audio engineers in this thread?

Does what Dr. Floyd Toole say count? No. He is not in this thread.

In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to “break in.” Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from “breaking in.” Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful listening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration—breaking down—of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants.

It is fascinating to note that “breaking-in” seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes “over the hill”?

 

[Andreas007]

In 2004 I had a phone call with Markus Wolff, back then chief developer of Klein&Hummel (and of Neumann speakers nowadays). He told me that their speakers don't need break in. The woofer will change a little bit which leads to a very minor change in the LF extension. That's all.

Additionally, there‘s also an official statement from Neumann.
Have a look at page 8:

https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7942/download

„The suspension and surround can change their stiffness over time; however a good design should be robust to these minor changes. Even quite large, and highly unlikely in a correctly working loudspeaker, changes (doubling or halving the stiffness) will alter the overall loudspeaker performance by less than 1 dB in the low-frequency region only.„

„Concluding, burning-in loudspeakers came from the past when poorly-designed passive systems were common.„

 

[Maxicut]

Do we have any audio engineers in this thread?

Has anyone on this thread worked at speaker design labs and have verified technical publications?

anecdote seems to a popular word around here. Thank you all for citing other people’s work!!!

Unless we have professionals in the field- not marketing or product guys (like me), engineers who have been trained in the audio arts , if so please step up and squash this once and for all.

That would be me...
All mechanical devises are designed & manufactured within the boundaries of their pre-determined specifications. Those specifications are either achieved at the time of manufacture, or after a breakin period. Years ago, for a combustion engine to be at spec, it required a breakin period, but nowadays engines are manufactured at spec on the production line, so they no longer require breaking-in.
A speaker is no different. Depending on what materials were used & whether it was manufactured at spec or not, determines whether a speaker needs to be broken in or not. Also, like all other mechanical devises, a speaker will slowly wear out & lose spec over time which can obviously be measured. Also, a speaker cone made of paper is going to be in & out of spec at completely different times & for different lengths of time to a speaker cone made of aluminum.

So what does this all mean? In the pro-audio world, everything "mechanical" is broken in because it just makes sense to do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything mechanical needs to be broken in or that it can be measured or heard (when new), but because there is no blanket answer that covers all possibilities, breaking in has just become the logical thing to do. At the other end of the scale, all speakers will eventually wear out, lose spec & sound completely different which can also be measured...

 

[Thomas savage]

While some mechanical brake in seems like a sensible thing though variable based on material and design, the concept that speakers totally change over weeks from new and the audiophile reports of things ' suddenly opening up after 2 months ' are clearly bollocks or imaginary bollocks if you like .

There's no evidence for it .

In the past Iv always left my speakers going while I'm at work when they were new but these days I just wire and fire. Can't say Bosch sounds any different over the last few weeks since I got my JBL 308's .

 

[Maxicut]

While some mechanical brake in seems like a sensible thing though variable based on material and design, the concept that speakers totally change over weeks from new and the audiophile reports of things ' suddenly opening up after 2 months ' are clearly bollocks or imaginary bollocks if you like .

There's no evidence for it .

In the past Iv always left my speakers going whole I'm at work when they are new but these days I just wire and fire. Can't say Bosch sounds any different over the last few weeks since I got my JBL 308's .

I don't listen to any audiophile rubbish. Out of the hundreds of speakers & headphones I've dealt with over the years, I've only had maybe two sets of monitors that livened-up a bit with a breakin & one set of headphones that dramatically changed with a breakin & that's it. The problem is, that you just don't know when someting needs a breakin, so a blanket breakin is the only logical way to go.

 

[GelbeMusik]

In the pro-audio world, everything "mechanical" is broken in because it just makes sense to do so, ...

DOA, "dead on arrival" would be bad. If during an event, or just before, the audio chain beaks, that would be way more costly than just the broken device. Of course its tested after delivery full power for a short time before its first deployment.

 

[snurf]

So if 'break-in' should be noticeable at least a few criteria have to be met: Very stiff spider that complies rather slowly. Vented box. Following the speaker manufacturers' recommendation of a 'break-in' period. That is gradually increasing volume over time which would make the 'break-in' noticeable.

So a recommendation could be to gradually increase the volume, let's say under a minute, until xmax has been reached, and keep it there for five minutes. That is in the rare case of actually buying speakers that need 'break-in'.

That is if 'break-in' exists..

 

[jomark911]

c'mon guys, there are people that believe in capacitors , or even wires break in.
You thought there wouldn't be some of their kind , that will tell the same story for speakers?
There have been people , that do hear HUGE changes on burned in cables. Yes they believe that there are some chemical reactions taking place while a wire is performing it's duties on a stereo set.
Yes we've heard that much from high end audio guys.
I used to work in a rep's service here in Athens, sansui , teac , Tascam .
There was this guy , He brought his brand new amp , a SANSUI amp of the higher class , to check the capacitors , as he thought the amp was performing kind of dry on the bass.
Specs of the amp where , freq response , dc-200khz. Connected onto a audio gen and a oscilloscope , pushed down , the amp was performing flawless. And then some.
Told him the amp was fine and gave him a print out.
He then mourmoured , that he had to swap cables , because they didn't match , to the amp and speakers. Go figure.
High end people are a very special kind of people , that face everything in life with a certain strategy. A very specific one , where everything must be done in a certain queue and a certain way. not to give or take anything.

 

[snurf]

Well, many years ago I decided to change a pair of decade old speaker cables. I could see through the transparent cover that the strands had turned to a grayish/black color. One might call that a 'burned in' look. I believe that is a chemical reaction called oxidation.

Anyway, I replaced the cables with new ones, same length and thickness and the same transparent cover. I swear I could hear a difference! It could have been in my mind, so I could let that slip.

But If I had saved the old cables I could have made heaps of money by selling them to your guy.





...to be clear, that last sentence was a joke

 

[headshake]

"Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation" -Dr. F. Toole

Adaptation.... brain plasticity.... sensory adaptation... expectation bias.... they are all in your head!

I think some people don't have an alternative option. It is either the speaker's fault or it is nothing- the issue is never with the listener. This is why this thread drags on. People can't rule themselves out.

IMHO - The main prob is we are a visually dominant animal. Vision tends to be pretty predictable and it is easy to know when it is not working right. I think folks extend that reliability to our other senses and that is where the bad logic breaks from reality. Hearing adapts and is deeply connected to the ever-ageing body.

While some mechanical brake in seems like a sensible thing though variable based on material and design, the concept that speakers totally change over weeks from new and the audiophile reports of things ' suddenly opening up after 2 months ' are clearly bollocks or imaginary bollocks if you like .

There's no evidence for it .

Our ears are always growing and change in size over time. What if we changed the shape of our ear right away, how long would it take for us to adapt? The answer is that it varies from person to person and can take days to weeks.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2014.00237/full

"This suggests that the auditory system is capable of recalibrating to the progressive changes in spectral cues that occur over one's lifetime that would otherwise degrade localization performance."

What I think is really neat is after people adapt to the spectral cues of a new ear, if they go back, we still retain the cues we used before the change. The brain keeps the perspective and builds on it.

I wonder how much learning we do when we get a new speaker? Do we adapt to the cues of the new speaker in order for it to make sense of the music we hear?

I started wearing glasses late in life. I basically went my whole life focussed to infinity. When I put on glasses for the first time there was an exaggerated sense of depth all over the place. There was an issue with the prescription and the top of the lens bent things. Tree's were bent 45 degrees at the top if I looked at them. I would say to myself "trees don't bend" and would watch them straighten up right before my eyes. I imagine if I was not conscious of it, this would just happen on its own over time. I imagine speakers are them same for some folks, the brain works around the flaws and gives us the reality we expect.

 

[snurf]

I think some people don't have an alternative option. It is either the speaker's fault or it is nothing- the issue is never with the listener. This is why this thread drags on. People can't rule themselves out.

Yes, the alternative option seems to be the denominator. Black or white. Never gray.
Either 'break-in' is present in all units or not at all.

Unknown factors is a stick in the wheel when navigating a subject, even though this subject might have an importance as transient as a flick of a switch. But eventually one might pick a side to escape the discomfort of not knowing. Hint: One will usually pick the side that offers the least resistance.

ELAC's Andrew Jones explains in a video that before measuring a woofer driver, they feed it a signal below Fs for a few minutes, presumably at xmax, and later on mentions an example where Fs goes from 50Hz to 40Hz. Then he goes on to explain that the difference is not audible in a closed box because of the box pressure.

Now correct me if I'm wrong: If he believes that it takes 5 minutes below Fs at xmax, let's say 30Hz, to get the driver to spec, then that's 9000 full excursions. Let's say less than half of that, 4000, is significantly audible. Is it possible i takes more than a few secs or minutes to go to non detectable at normal listening levels playing music with 70-120 bpm?

To me, it's seems plausible it would be audible in a vented box, especially low tuned, if the spider, or even but less likely the surround is particularly stiff and complies rather slowly. You would probably also have to follow the speaker manufacturers' recommendation of a slow 'break-in' period .

From post #330 Neumann Speakers:

Concluding, burning-in loudspeakers came from the past when poorly-designed passive systems were
common. Today we have well-designed active solutions that can be used straight out of the box. To
take an analogy from the automotive industry: cars used to require a running-in period of 500 miles
(800 km), these days it is not required.

So at least at Neumann the myth was real in the past.

 

[Twitch54]

While some mechanical brake in seems like a sensible thing though variable based on material and design, the concept that speakers totally change over weeks from new and the audiophile reports of things ' suddenly opening up after 2 months ' are clearly bollocks or imaginary bollocks if you like .

I agree, when I hear audiophiles proclaiming beneficial changes to be 'huge' I shrug my shoulders and wonder what they think about their latest power cord upgrade ..........

 

[snurf]

I've used power cord cables as speaker cables. When I shortened them by 3/4, the change was significant. I wonder if an upgrade would have made a difference.. ....................