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Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

watchnerd

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Yeah, my Hales Signature Two's, 48 inches tall, 11 inches wide and 21 inches deep, weighed 182 lbs. Plus a 24 lb external crossover. PER SPEAKER. About the same weight as each of my Soundlabs for what it is worth.

Dynaudio drivers in a D'appolito array with an external crossover and heavy AF cabinet:

a.jpg



I bet you could do something pretty interesting with a DSP external crossover and some modern class D amps to compensate for their low sensitivity.
 

Blumlein 88

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Dynaudio drivers in a D'appolito array with an external crossover and heavy AF cabinet:

a.jpg



I bet you could do something pretty interesting with a DSP external crossover and some modern class D amps to compensate for their low sensitivity.
I ran them with a pair of bridged Classe 25s for awhile. According to stereophile measures they probably weren't terrible on the Harman criteria as they were. They were one of very few boxes I could stomach at the time having owned only panels for a long time. I do still have them stored away.
 

vavan

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Her voice is recorded with good dynamics and some sibilants but I liked it
also liked how it sounded and added artist to my collection of female vocals
 

Habu

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Hello from France

Just in case, Ikea standard feet (the feet they give you with Besta series) are perfect to move easily the speakers.
The sound is largely improved / no more cash after buying the speakers / etc.

B3AB5748-AC9E-429C-B2DC-6C2A9EBEE348.jpeg
40B0634C-EB4B-4659-BD88-DEE0347847A9.jpeg

6D5D9173-8811-4B57-BADD-2F55EFC42201.jpeg
 
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vavan

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that reminded me of that trouble I had with supplied f208 spikes...
 

Habu

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that reminded me of that trouble I had with supplied f208 spikes...
Even the underside of the revel speaker is made with the same shiny black !
 

DavSch

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Does anyone have an opinion or experience with the Revel F52. They were highly regarded in German magazines at the time. Are they comparable to the performance of the F 206 or 208?

David from Berlin
 

vavan

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btw here's my measurement (mdat zipped) I've taken to check pair matching
I wasn't especially precise in positioning, simple eyeballing only
pair matching.png
 

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  • f 208 centered.zip
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Karu

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Impedance test shows dipping to 3.5 ohm so you better have a high current amplifier that doesn't mind such loads:

View attachment 62513

/

With the above in mind, what does this mean for amp choice (2-4m distance mid size room, relatively loud incl. classical)? I am looking at the myriad Purify/Hypex options. Say e.g. the 2 channel Purify with its 1x SMPS 1200 vs. NC500 with the SMPS700 in both channels vs. bi amping vs. XXX?
 

RichB

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I will have to say that the Salon1 mid-bass doesn't fill me with much delight. That is a pretty mid-quality looking bit of work. Very generic parts bin looking. Maybe the later speaker drivers are nicer.

Why is it in my hand, you ask...
The Salon1 and Voice1 midranges tended to fail, some issue with the glue. I had to replace them on the Voice1 and Salon1's.
It was a substantial driver.

The Utlima2 Tweeter is a replacement.
I took the grills off to stop the kitten from climbing them. Then the cleaning ladies, used a duster to pulled off one of the guard.
All was well until I dented it trying to put back the guard, a $1000 error on my part.
Still, I blame the cat :p

- Rich
 

Erik_N

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My first post here and first of all I like to say thank you for this and many other interesting reviews!

I've had F208 together with C208 in my system since September 2014 and I'm very happy with them. When I used the speakers without subwoofer I found the bass response very good, but I don't have any measurements of this. I read in some posts requests for in room measurements. I have some tone curves from when my system was tuned, but it is only with my subwoofer also. I don't know if it still is interesting.

My room is 4.2x4.5 m with 2.3 m to the ceiling (app. 14x15', 7'8") and creates pretty strong peaks around 40 and 80 Hz. The magnitude of these can be seen in the diagram below, where green is without EQ and yellow with EQ.

IB EQ.jpg


After trying with crossover frequencies 40-150 Hz it was set to 80 Hz, in my Meridian G68ADV surround processor. The Revel speakers (without sub) still had high peaks around 40 and 80 Hz. With plugs in the bass-reflex ports this was reduced with 5 dB @ 40 Hz and 2-3 dB @ 80 Hz. Then we manually added filters -10 dB @ 39 Hz and -5 dB @ 82 Hz in the surround processor (Meridian Room Correction not used).

The result with Revel Performa3 F208 and BMS 18N862 in IB-sub (2x18") can be seen here (with house curve).

Revel+IB fullrange.jpg


For most music listning I think the bass response from the F208:s are "good enough" in my room, but the subwoofers deep bass capability adds another dimension. For movies I think the subwoofer is a "must have"! :)

My Revel speakers replaced Mirage M-1si and OM-C2, so I also think the Revel's are pretty small and light. M-1si are 84 kg each....
F208 are the only speaker I found that has that large sound I was used to from my Mirage speakers. Maybe that comes from that Mr Kevin Voecks was involved also in the design of the original Mirage M-1?

Finally an image of my setup, with Revel Performa3 F208 and C208. Sub opening under the bench.

IMG_3694.jpg
 

Selah Audio

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I really think chasing the deep bass response like this is a waste of time. Wavelengths are huge. 30Hz is about 10 metres. It is impossible to remove the effect of the room. The room becomes part of the speaker at these wavelengths.

The different measured shapes of the response make this somewhat clear. A ported speaker is a 4th order system. No ifs, no buts, it is 4th order. There is some wiggle room with the parameters of the system, and the QB3 (quasi-butterworth 3rd order) looks a lot like a 3rd, and has been a popular alignment. But no matter what, the bass response curve will always eventually show a 4th order rolloff. If it doesn't in measurement, it isn't the speaker that is the problem. Designers can choose the Q of the system, usually from a limited set. Many will go for maximally flat, Butterworth aka Q = 0.7, lots go for something with a bit of dialled in extension, so Chebychev, Q = 0.8, or even more, with Q's up to say 1.2 with a clear artificially accentuated bass hump. A few will go for low Q's with a lean bass buy chasing some ideals about improved group delay, say Q down to 0.5. All of this stuff has been known for many decades, and not much has changed.

Designers don't have a lot of room to play. Physics is a harsh mistress. Unless the designer messes up (and some do) the bass response really is predictable from basic physics. Given the box and port dimensions, and the speaker's mechanical and electrical parameters (collectively usually terms the TS orTheile-Small parameters) you can predict from first principles the free field bass response. Designers can mess up in only a few ways. (And these can be predicted from the basic physics as well, just with a bit more effort than just the simple 4th order equations.) But any competently designed speaker will have an iron clad deep bass response that varies very little from the very simple 4th order response.

The F208 and 228Be use almost the same bass driver. The SB 23NBAC45 in the 208 and the SB23CACS45 in the 228Be. (Harmon could commission custom parameters, SB are more than happy to oblige, but I somewhat doubt there would be much point here.)

These are the parameters for both drivers. Differences highlighted. Where different, the 228Be driver is first.
  • Nominal Impedance 4 Ω
  • DC resistance, Re 3.3 Ω
  • Voice coil inductance, Le 0.27 mH
  • Effective piston area, Sd 216 cm2
  • Voice coil diameter 45.5 mm
  • Voice coil height 19 mm
  • Air gap height 6 mm
  • Linear coil travel (p-p) 13 mm
  • Magnetic flux density 0.86 T
  • Magnet weight 0.8 kg
  • Net weight 2.7 kg
  • Free air resonance, Fs 23 Hz
  • Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 90 dB
  • Mechanical Q-factor, Qms 6.0 vs 5.4
  • Electrical Q-factor, Qes 0.35
  • Total Q-factor, Qts 0.33 vs 0.35
  • Moving mass incl. air, Mms 33 g vs 32 g
  • Force factor, Bl 6.7 Tm
  • Equivalent volume, Vas 95 liters
  • Compliance, Cms 1.43 mm/N
  • Mechanical loss, Rms 0.8 kg/s vs 0.9kg/s
  • Rated power handling* 60 W
Basically the very slight difference is down to the slight difference in effective cone mass - 32 vs 33grams. The other differences are a direct consequence as they include effective mass in their definition. (The surround termination is likey a different design to account for the different cone properties, this may be reflected in the mechanical loss.) The final result that matters is a tiny change in Qts. Critically, Vas and Fs are unchanged. Note that things such as linear coil travel and the like are identical. The speakers use essentially the same motor and have identical power handling and ability to move air.

Where one might expect a difference is in a barely measurable difference in bass alignment due to the different Qts. This can be trivially tuned out with either changes to the crossover resistance and maybe be a small change to the port length.

Differences between the speaker's bass response will be extraordinarily difficult to find. Any difference in measured results is almost certainly an artefact of the way the measurements were done. And these measurements are hard, simply because, as above, the room couples to the speaker at large wavelengths. Even jamming the microphone against the cone and sticking it in the port can't fully avoid these issues. If a room mode coincides with the location of the driver, it can affect the measurements.

This is especially important when looking for such defining parameters as the 3dB point of the speaker. There is little chance it can be reliably identified from an in-room measurement. Indeed the entire shape of the roll off is difficult to reliably estimate.

Overall, the true deep bass character of any speaker is governed by a few simple iron clad parameters. Choosing a higher Q than 0.7 can lead to a more emphasised bass, and there is little doubt that many bookshelf speakers do this (all the way up the the infamous LS3/5a). Some of this is taste. A zillion years ago it was noted that there was a bit of a cultural divide, with American speakers (and we assume consumer taste) going for higher Q values, and British speakers going (for the most part) for the more accurate but leaner Q values.
What one also notices is that many people ascribe qualities to the bass that are not part of the true deep bass response. Bass slam and impact come from much higher frequencies. A goodly dose of harmonic distortion in the bass might be part of this, and lead to perceptions of better bass. That might be more measurable.

ETA.
Eventually bass comes from moving air. And for deep bass, lots of air. No amount of messing about can change this simple rule. You can make any speaker go as deep as you like. But at the cost of maximum output. In the limit, in-ear monitor earphones have fabulous bass. Deep loud bass means you must shift lots of air. Even a small extension in bass roll-off frequency can mean a quite noticeable drop in maximum output.
I have done nearfield testing on the SB23 woofer. This may not be the same driver as Revel is now using a different supplier.
 

BYRTT

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@amirm regarding analyzes with the bit missed low end reach :) for advanced towers as F35 / HDI-3600 / F208 think have find a big clue to look for in Klippel software interface settings, error seems could be that when software calculate the spinorama data it uses linear phase curves as the ones you share attached per review, have found proof in simulation software than when amplitude curve of a inverted port output is summed to non inverted woofer output using linear phase curves then result looks close to ASR analyze for F206 as seen below in black curve, and when simulation software use minimum phase curves to sum inverted port output to non inverted woofer then result looks close to that year 2007 spinorama from Revel/Harman seen below in blue curves.
14.png




Many thanks to @Francis Vaughan pointing out used woofer drivers for F208 was from SBA, that tip made it possible make advanced simulation model of low end reach for F206 that include induvidual bafffle loss/diffraction per transducer and port position, adjust each transducer and port position on Y-axis relative to 2 meter distance microphone up at tweeter position height, and also add some longer Z-axis to port output in that the inverted output from inside enclosure have to travel some distance to reach the physical port tube, the differences can be seen in the individual D1/D2/D3/D4 curves before summing output happen is not exactly the same.
20.png
 
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carlob

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amirm, seems official spins have been posted by Kevin Voecks in the avs forum: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/710918-revel-owners-thread-408.html#post56177990

Also the explanation is interesting:

Hello All,
There is visual confusion when trying to evaluate the listening window curve that lies on top of the much less valuable on-axis curve. Therefore, I have attached the F228Be Listening Window curve by itself, which is extremely good. I have also attached the Performa F208 Listening Window along with the Performa F228Be listening window, allowing a much easier visual comparison. As our research has long indicated, the listening window is a far better indicator of direct sound quality than is any on-axis curve. On-axis curves measured from just slightly different microphone locations will yield different results at high frequencies due to trivial local diffraction, making them misleading. The listening window greatly mitigates this problem.


Please note that these curves are not just a new format, but have been made with an entirely new measurement system, using the Klippel Analyzer, along with an updated anechoic chamber LF calibration. Therefore, these updated measurements, done with the same system, allow for valid comparisons. It is clear from these curves that the LF amplitude response is the same for both the F208 and F228Be. (Thank you to Mark Glazer for late Friday night work on these!)

Screenshot 2020-05-13 at 02.17.39.png
 
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Ron Texas

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@Erik_N that's a lovely retreat. Huge screen...
 

jhaider

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Thanks for that. I hadn't realized PerformaBe driver cones don't have the radial ribs.

More Revel driver porn.
Here is the Salon1 mid-bass and an Ultima2 tweeter.
View attachment 62972

View attachment 62974

- Rich

Surprising that a Revel flagship of that era would have a ceramic magnet woofer. The step down Performa series had beautiful drivers. While the systems engineering in the newer Performa lines is likely more advanced, I doubt the cone drivers (either Performa3 or PerformaBe) are equal to the previous ones. The old Performa drivers look like they use adapted JBL Pro monitor motors. Note these speakers were designed before the huge neodymium spike last decade.

Performa F32 brouchure.png
 
OP
amirm

amirm

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@amirm regarding analyzes with the bit missed low end reach :) for advanced towers as F35 / HDI-3600 / F208 think have find a big clue to look for in Klippel software interface settings, error seems could be that when software calculate the spinorama data it uses linear phase curves as the ones you share attached per review, have found proof in simulation software than when amplitude curve of a inverted port output is summed to non inverted woofer output using linear phase curves then result looks close to ASR analyze for F206 as seen below in black curve, and when simulation software use minimum phase curves to sum inverted port output to non inverted woofer then result looks close to that year 2007 spinorama from Revel/Harman seen below in blue curves.
I think you are on the right track with respect to cancellation due to the port as that would explain the dip I am seeing. On the rest, that is not how the system works. Klippel NFS has no visibility into the design of the speaker. It simply measures the response around the speaker and uses that to construct an equation that predicts the response. What a speaker is, is as a black box to NFS.

Now, there may be an inherent issue with the measurement but it is not due to this factor.
 
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