Ascend Sierra 2 Speaker Review

[astr0b0y]

Since we already know Amir likes to listen loud (from the Genelec review), I’d wager he’d like the Ascend as it gets louder (~4dB louder if we believe the manufacturer specs for both).

EDIT: Ha, predicted it.

So why do the BS22's get I significantly higher preference rating?

 

[aarons915]

I've seen you make this broad claim about "resonance" in RAAL tweeters before on other forums so I will quote the explanation that was provided to you by the speaker designer the last time so that others here may gain a better understanding of what the spinorama may be showing in that frequency range (note that this quote is in reference to the S-2EX, however the explanation is related to the phenomena in the S2 as they are both 2-way speakers using the same tweeter):

Yes the issue with the 2EX was that Ascend's measurements don't show that region to be boosted in the listening window, even though they're shown in all the other curves but in this case we have an accurate 3rd party measurement showing the region boosted in every curve so it is technically a resonance although it's also what gives the tweeter it's signature response which many people seem to like so it's not altogether a bad thing, but it's also not technically neutral either, it will boost all frequencies in that range. This doesn't mean the 2 EX is the same, we need to wait and see how it measures when someone sends one in, like I said earlier it will probably be better in the woofers range since it uses the excel midwoofer but it seems like the 64-10 has a unique response that will probably measure similar to the Sierra 2.

 

[Shazb0t]

So why do the BS22's get I significantly higher preference rating?

Because the preference ratings don't take into account many important variables in loudspeakers? I believe that point was made clear by the people running the ratings that they are not a be all end all.

 

[Stump909]

Of the overall speakers yes but the RAAL 64-10 is probably at least 10x the cost of the tweeter used in the 8341.

Doesn't matter if the total package is far far less.

 

[Stump909]

Also keep in mind that's not really what the data shows. The RAAL has better off axis horizontal dispersion than the 8341. This is pretty clear from the horizontal directivity graph and the horizontal polar being +-20° wider. The vertical directivity is another story though.

I wasn't arguing the RAAL wasn't better, just that's it pointless to claim dome's come close when there's such much wider range of options and it's safe to assume the 8341's would probably land on the higher-end range.

 

[goldark]

Because the preference ratings don't take into account many important variables in loudspeakers? I believe that point was made clear by the people running the ratings that they are not a be all end all.

Not directing this at you, but I do wonder what the use of a "preference rating" is if it ignores a significant number of variables that factor into speaker "preference."

 

[Sancus]

Not directing this at you, but I do wonder what the use of a "preference rating" is if it ignores a significant number of variables that factor into speaker "preference."

Because there isn't sufficient research to factor those other variables into a score. The preference rating does what is possible with what was proven by the publicly available research.

It's better than nothing; you can use the preference rating to give you a list of speakers to consider("anything between 6 and 8 with size/weight/price in my budget.") but then you have to dig deeper into measurements and demo speakers to pick.

That's still much better than having to dig through the eventual hundreds or even thousands of speaker reviews ASR will have, let alone trying to distill manufacturer marketing data and subjective reviewer impressions into anything remotely sensible. Think of it as a way to make sense of a huge database, not for comparing two speakers.

 

[aarons915]

Not directing this at you, but I do wonder what the use of a "preference rating" is if it ignores a significant number of variables that factor into speaker "preference."

Because there isn't sufficient research to factor those other variables into a score. The preference rating does what is possible with what was proven by the publicly available research.

This is very true and I also suspect that the SPL requirements are way too subjective to put into a preference score. I personally use KEF LS50's and they get plenty loud for me(with dual subs) but then you have some people who need a Salon 2 or M2 size speaker for their SPL requirements. I can see how that would be impossible to put into the preference rating but it just means that you personally have to evaluate your own SPL requirements when choosing a speaker. If you know you like to rock out at 100+ db levels then a bookshelf speaker probably isn't going to cut it.

 

[restorer-john]

So why do the BS22's get I significantly higher preference rating?

Because there's a secret "internet hype percentage" parameter in the preference rating algorithm which heavily skews the results in their case.

 

[MZKM]

So why do the BS22's get I significantly higher preference rating?

Because it's smoother. However, it peaks in the presence region, so it may sound bright to some (it's EQ'able though).

 

[goldark]

Dave Fabrikant has responded to the review here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sh...enter-Channel-measurements!&p=62356#post62356

Most of it deals with the CMT340 Center review, but he thinks there's an issue with the ribbon in the speaker that is being measured: "his measurements of the Sierra-2 that he obtained from someone, while the measurements do generally look good, I do suspect a possible issue with the ribbon. "

 

[StevenEleven]

Not directing this at you, but I do wonder what the use of a "preference rating" is if it ignores a significant number of variables that factor into speaker "preference."

If you read Dr. Toole’s book, page 338, he gives an example of six speakers, ranging from $200 pr. to $22,000 a pair. Tonal balance and smoothness can be pretty much on the mark at $200 a pair (or perhaps a little less, with a little compromise as with my BS-22s). The differentiators beyond that are fit & finish, looks, power-handling capabilities, low frequency extension, tighter & tighter control of resonances, etc.

So don’t be surprised at the next $200 / pr. speaker that kicks the snot out of more expensive speakers from manufacturers who are not putting in a full effort for a particular model (or who don’t know exactly what they’re doing or prioritize marketing over SQ). This is not news. Pop a couple of good subwoofers in the system along with those $200/pr. speakers and manage your bass well, and yes, you have something formidable for not too much money.

 

[richard12511]

If you read Dr. Toole’s book, page 338, he gives an example of six speakers, ranging from $200 pr. to $22,000 a pair. Tonal balance and smoothness can be pretty much on the mark at $200 a pair (or perhaps a little less, with a little compromise as with my BS-22s). The differentiators beyond that are fit & finish, looks, power-handling capabilities, low frequency extension, tighter & tighter control of resonances, etc.

So don’t be surprised at the next $200 / pr. speaker that kicks the snot out of more expensive speakers from manufacturers who are not putting in a full effort for a particular model (or who don’t know exactly what they’re doing). This is not news. Pop a couple of good subwoofers in the system along with those $200/pr. speakers and manage your bass well, and yes, you have something formidable for not too much money.

I'm not surprised that a $200 speaker can beat a $2,000 speaker. Audio is one of those industries where it's pretty hard to say "you get what you pay for".

"fit & finish, looks, power-handling capabilities, low frequency extension" It's important to note that the Adante has those qualities in spades over the BS-22s, but none of those things really improve its w/sub score.

 

[Shazb0t]

If you read Dr. Toole’s book, page 338, he gives an example of six speakers, ranging from $200 pr. to $22,000 a pair. Tonal balance and smoothness can be pretty much on the mark at $200 a pair (or perhaps a little less, with a little compromise as with my BS-22s). The differentiators beyond that are fit & finish, looks, power-handling capabilities, low frequency extension, tighter & tighter control of resonances, etc.

So don’t be surprised at the next $200 / pr. speaker that kicks the snot out of more expensive speakers from manufacturers who are not putting in a full effort for a particular model (or who don’t know exactly what they’re doing or prioritize marketing over SQ). This is not news. Pop a couple of good subwoofers in the system along with those $200/pr. speakers and manage your bass well, and yes, you have something formidable for not too much money.

This isn't wrong, but you also have to be realistic. In the case of the BS22's, even crossed at 80hz, their 4" woofer is never going to keep up with the sub(s) when you crank the volume up. They have an advantage in the preference rating because max SPL without seeing frequency response linearity issues isn't accounted for in the formula. I could be wrong, but I would think that it's cheaper/easier to make a speaker that doesn't play very loudly have a flat on-axis frequency response in a more limited range. That's not even taking into account how loud the tweeter can play without distortion.

 

[laudio]

Ah yes Ascend. The Sierras look nice and measured pretty good, but at that price point I'd be buying something else. I also remember buying their little speakers many years ago, and sent them back after a trial. Took a while - it was not just where I could send them back, the owner wanted me to explain what I didn't like about the sound first. lol.

 

[laudio]

Dave Fabrikant has responded to the review here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sh...enter-Channel-measurements!&p=62356#post62356

Most of it deals with the CMT340 Center review, but he thinks there's an issue with the ribbon in the speaker that is being measured: "his measurements of the Sierra-2 that he obtained from someone, while the measurements do generally look good, I do suspect a possible issue with the ribbon. "

Nice long read about the center channel and his expertise, then drops a little tidbit at the end to cast dispersions about the quality of this review. C'mon the ribbon is bad? lol

 

[goldark]

Nice long read about the center channel and his expertise, then drops a little tidbit at the end to cast dispersions about the quality of this review. C'mon the ribbon is bad? lol

I think the point he was trying to make is that you can't guarantee that a used, borrowed speaker on loan from a member is up to spec/not defective/functioning as it should like you can if you had gotten it from the manufacturer.

Amir's measurements clearly differs from his (rising response in the treble vs. rolled off response in Amir's, which he actually prefers). There are a few logical conclusions you can make from this, and one possibility is the ribbon is not functioning as it should.

 

[laudio]

I think the point he was trying to make is that you can't guarantee that a used, borrowed speaker on loan from a member is up to spec/not defective/functioning as it should like you can if you had gotten it from the manufacturer.

Amir's measurements clearly differs from his (rising response in the treble vs. rolled off response in Amir's, which he actually prefers). There are a few logical conclusions you can make from this, and one possibility is the ribbon is not functioning as it should.

Or unit to unit variations in the original. Most tweeters I have encountered either work OK or don't work at all.

 

[mitchco]

One of my customers has the the same speakers. While I can't share the frequency response at the moment, I can say it was strange. Started rolling off at 6 kHz and was -15 dB down at about 12 kHz with a -4 dB hole at 3 kHz. Both channels measured the same and were setup for midfield use. At first we thought magnetic covers were still on the RAAL's but apparently not...

 

[beefkabob]

For $1500, I might want something better. The vertical is just awful. Don't stand up! Don't slouch! Make sure those speaker stands are widely adjustable!