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Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

KSTR

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I was going to investigate something else in Totaldac but discovered some serious performance issues not covered earlier.

The test is simple. A 10 kHz tone generated by the Audio Precision analyzer, fed to both Grace Design Balanced DAC ($150) and Totaldac d1-six ($13,400). An ideal DAC would generate just the 10 kHz tone and nothing else. Here is what we get from both DACs, with XLR Output:

View attachment 30379

As you see I have set the bandwidth to a hard limit of 20 kHz. So no argument please about ultrasonic tones. Our concern here is the audible band.

The Grace Design Balanced DAC produces the expected results from a well engineered DAC. We have our pure tone at 10 kHz and tiny spurious tones at lower than -135 dB.

The picture is wildly different with d1-six. It produces spurious tones both above and below the 10 kHz tone we fed it. The ones below are especially problematic because they are not perceptually masked. Indeed, you may not have good enough hearing to perceive the 10 kHz tone but hear the lower spurious tones since they land in our most sensitive spectrum (2 to 5 kHz).

The tone also has broad shoulders instead of sharp narrow one in Grace Design. That indicates random but low frequency disturbances, usually in clock but could also be reference voltage modulation.

We also have mains leakage which we don't have any sign of with Grace Design.

None of the extra tones in d1-six are harmonic in nature. The second harmonic of a 10 kHz tone is 20 kHz which is cut off from the test.

Note that this test was setup and I simply moved the cables from one DAC to the other and re-measured.

The designer talks about 96 kHz sampling being better. It was not. But more on this later.

The above test is at 48 kHz. To see if we have some timing related issues, I changed the sampling rate to 44.1 kHz and got this (everything else the same):

View attachment 30382

As expected, Grace Design performance does not change. But the performance of the Totaldac d1-six degrades further with tons more spurious tones. We saw this in our original dashboard in the review.

Again notice that so much garbage is created at lower frequency than our 10 kHz tone.

I happen to turn on the FIR filter and was surprised that it highly magnified these spurious tones. Here is that output at 96 kHz sampling:

View attachment 30383

Wow. Now we have unwanted tones rising to just -65 dB or so relative to our 10 kHz tone!!! What the heck is going on? Why would a simple high frequency equalization also cause this?

You want to see ugly? Here it is at 88.2 kHz:

View attachment 30384

In whose book this is high-fidelity?

Who here dares explaining to me how these extra distortions make good sound? I fed the thing 10 kHz and I get all of the above in the bargain?

When we can design a nearly perfect DAC for just $150, how upside down the audio world is to produce what the Totaldac d1-six outputs?

Remember, all of this is with hard cut off of 20 kHz. So none of the arguments prior to this post about unfiltered NOS matter. These are all audio-band issues. NOT ultrasonics.

I am disgusted and going to sleep now.....
Thanks for these new measurements, and after seeing that I now have to step back from my previous impression that the TotalDac is a reasonably well engineered piece of gear. It's not, ghost notes in the audio band hitting -60dB (0.1%) is not acceptable.

While it would be interesting to further investigate how these spuriae exactly change with frequency, frequency relation to sample rate, and level, I'd also say now: game over, case closed.
 

zalive

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Thanks for these new measurements, and after seeing that I now have to step back from my previous impression that the TotalDac is a reasonably well engineered piece of gear. It's not, ghost notes in the audio band hitting -60dB (0.1%) is not acceptable.

What do you mean by ghost notes?
 

JJB70

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I would assume purchasing, hand matching, and assembly of hundreds of resistors is quite expensive. That's probably a significant chunk of the price.
That's why 99% of the market is based on DAC chips. Better performance and easier assembly for a tiny fraction of the cost.

Low volume production will increase cost, and amortizing the cost of development over a small number of units produced can inflate prices massively.
However, even recognising that, the cost of this DAC seems excessive. Benchmark are also a relatively low volume producer I am guessing, I also suspect that their production also relies on non-automated processes. Yet they cost an awful lot less and clearly they are the result of development and design of the highest order. I have no idea how much it costs to make one of these TotalDAC products but the only way it could get anywhere near justifying a 13000 euros price would be if product development and production is grotesquely inefficient. I suspect it is more likely that the manufacturer knows there is a niche market which equates price with better sound and exclusivity and has just positioned themselves to serve that market. From a strictly business perspective it is quite a smart move.
At a deeper level though, if you have a product which has been commoditised in the way that DACs have been (as evidenced by the Apple dongle or the multitude of excellent DACs costing less than a twentieth of the price of this) then I think it hard to justify the price of this unless it is viewed simply as a statement and audio jewellery. The problem is that it is built like alternatives costing a few hundred dollars or less (actually the March Audio DAC has much better design and casework for a tiny fraction of the cost and is also made by a small supplier).
In this segment price is meaningless as nobody buying this is applying rational analysis of performance and cost, but given you can buy some lovely audio jewellery at that price I don't know why anyone would buy this.
 

Joachim Herbert

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Amir, can you record some music samples played through the totalDAC and another DAC that measures better and let people download them and try to ABX them ? I think results would be interesting.

Does not make any sense to me:

1.) There will be a AD step
2.) You will listen to the sound of different DACs through your DAC

You will not be able to attribute what you hear to the original DAC, the AD stage, your DAC, amp, speakers, romm, headphone.

Why not just accept that the better the measurements the more transparent = non existent a piece of equipment will be?

Unless somebody discovers the secret sauce of highend audio, that is.
 

levimax

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Does not make any sense to me:

1.) There will be a AD step
2.) You will listen to the sound of different DACs through your DAC

You will not be able to attribute what you hear to the original DAC, the AD stage, your DAC, amp, speakers, romm, headphone.

Why not just accept that the better the measurements the more transparent = non existent a piece of equipment will be?

Unless somebody discovers the secret sauce of highend audio, that is.

If you play 2 different samples made with the same ADC level matched through the same system everything in the chain will be identical, the only thing different would be the samples. If you can reliably ABX a difference is has to be a difference in the samples. Since ABX testing has been mentioned often in this thread I would be interested how many if anyone could ABX between the samples. I do accept better measurements indicate more transparency but I think it would be an interesting to see what would happen.... since we have a poor measuring DAC it would be a good opportunity to have a group of people compare it to a good measuring DAC.

I do not believe in secret sauce.
 

Haskil

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Does not make any sense to me:

1.) There will be a AD step
2.) You will listen to the sound of different DACs through your DAC

You will not be able to attribute what you hear to the original DAC, the AD stage, your DAC, amp, speakers, romm, headphone.

Why not just accept that the better the measurements the more transparent = non existent a piece of equipment will be?

Unless somebody discovers the secret sauce of highend audio, that is.

But you can, or not, appreciate differencies beetween the two signals...
 

Joachim Herbert

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But you can, or not, appreciate differencies beetween the two signals...

Sure. But say you like one more better than the other you could tell the reason. It might be due to the source (one of the DACs compared), it might be an interaction with the analog to digital conversion, your system or any combination of these.
 

Joachim Herbert

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If you can reliably ABX a difference is has to be a difference in the samples.

So true, but not in the way intended. You will NOT compare the original digital to analog conversion process. What you will compare is the whole chain DA>AD (including all steps taken to hone the signal like dithering>your listening chain>your listening environment>you.

There may be a reproducable difference, and you may like one better than the other. But you cannot be sure if this is due to the original source or Schmutzeffekte (do not know the english word, maybe smear effect) in the chain as a whole.
 

g29

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Can we simulate the sound of the totaldac ? Is there a foobar distortion generator plugin and how to configurate to emulate that sound?

I always wondered why there have been no "TUBE" DSP options for those that like the sound of various tube equipment. Various vendors say their XYZ piece has a "tube-like" sound. Why not just make a clean uncolored XYZ piece with "tube-like" DSP options ???
 
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levimax

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So true, but not in the way intended. You will NOT compare the original digital to analog conversion process. What you will compare is the whole chain DA>AD (including all steps taken to hone the signal like dithering>your listening chain>your listening environment>you.

There may be a reproducable difference, and you may like one better than the other. But you cannot be sure if this is due to the original source or Schmutzeffekte (do not know the english word, maybe smear effect) in the chain as a whole.

A decent ADC will capture the signals from the two DACs very accurately. It is in essences as close to putting the two DAC's in a system without actually shipping them. Worrying about some potential interactions with the ADC capture that would alter things differently for one system vs another does not make sense to me.
 

KSTR

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Can we simulate the sound of the totaldac ? Is there a foobar distortion generator plugin and how to configurate to emulate that sound?
Once the underlying problem is understood it could be simulated, but the mechanism looks to be quite complex (as of now I have no clue), so not an easy task. It has absolutely nothing to do with ordinary harmonic distortion, so conventional distortion plugins won't cover this. The only person who could answer this is the designer....
 
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Joachim Herbert

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I always wondered why there have been no "TUBE" DSP options for those that like the sound of various tube equipment. Various vendors say their XYZ piece has a "tube-like" sound. Why not just make a clean uncolored XYZ piece with "tube-like" DSP options ???

There are lots of tube emulations available. See my previous post #340.
 

KSTR

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So true, but not in the way intended. You will NOT compare the original digital to analog conversion process. What you will compare is the whole chain DA>AD (including all steps taken to hone the signal like dithering>your listening chain>your listening environment>you.

There may be a reproducable difference, and you may like one better than the other. But you cannot be sure if this is due to the original source or Schmutzeffekte (do not know the english word, maybe smear effect) in the chain as a whole.
For the rather unique type of error we are dealing with here, a decent ADC can surely capture all the madness and because the reproducing chain will typically not have a similar distortion profile (unless the listener's DAC is really mediocre) the difference would be well projected.
I wrote earlier somewhere here that the RME Adi-2 Pro was found to be transparent when inserted as a "buffer" (AD-->DA) after a NOS DAC and was able to "keep the magic" of that DAC.
 

solderdude

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recording the actual sound (at 192/24) is easier and more accurate than simulation but would limit the choice of music which (Amir ?) could use.

With 192/24 I reckon the 'stairsteps' can be recorded and reproduced somewhat (but not exactly) similar.

This could be checked by reproducing 20kHz or so and recording that and subsequently playing back the 192/24 recording and checking if the recorded signal shows a similar signal.

Some people will claim a DS DAC can never reproduce the wonderful sound of a filterless R2R DAC because it has a filter.
But recording at 192kHz should at least record all crap up to 80kHz or so.
 

Haskil

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Sure. But say you like one more better than the other you could tell the reason. It might be due to the source (one of the DACs compared), it might be an interaction with the analog to digital conversion, your system or any combination of these.

It is less a question of loving one more than the other but of perceiving or not the differences between an excellent DAC to measures and another mediocre to the same measures ... The possible artefact introduced by the ADC conversion will be the even for both ...
 
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