End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

[dagfinn]

Thank you for your thoughts and recommendation. Excellent speaker no doubt (as with all Genelecs), and one I had considered (though not heard sadly), but in the end does not fully meet all of my criteria. I do hope you are able to find a way some day to acquire your end game speaker!

As to the room, fully agree on making sure noise level is very low. Actually going through the listening room design process now and this is a primary criteria. There are a few main things you need to do to ensure this … concrete slab for the floor (not wood plank floating on wood supports as is common in US!), minimize the acoustic excitation of walls/ceiling, and last, a quiet HVAC system. Working through all of these items in coming weeks.

And yup, go big or go home

Thanks, I hope you'll be happy too, I'm certain the result will sound fantastic! Those new D&D's will undoubtedly be spectacular, I'd buy them without even knowing other specs than "bigger than 8c"! But if you love the other more, get the other . Glad you're bringing the room into the picture properly, I'm sure you'll be happier for it.

For me, diversity is necessary. There are so many different speaker designs, which all sound different. Also, I'm an antiquarian - I like old things - specially those that work well and look good too. When I discovered the 1985 Genelec 1022a, I was sold. The design is almost timeless. Almost, because it is modern industrial design on a high level, clearly. At it's workhorse core is amazing sound, which is what it's all about. True ribbon tweeters, short horn/wave guides, non-diffraction sculpting, 12" woofer, front ported, tri-amped class AB, analog active c.o... , 27 kg - I can lift them . The 1022A has an iconic place in pro monitor history and audio production, it is my endgame speaker in it's category!

Next to them sits my other classic, 1983/1990 Greg Timbers designed JBL 250Ti, a totally different speaker. Big, dynamic, in the room sound - huge. Less neutral, perhaps - but I don't care at all - the bass-midbass-low mid is just sweet and also powerful. Having one driver covering the vocal range is special. I could go on about the design, but they represent something sonically very different, and sometimes more pleasing, from the Genelecs . Sorry, Gennies.

But since I'm curious about current speakers and designs, I've tried some more - just to experience the differences. I've kept some; 8030c is my modern nearfield reference, a used KEF R3 I got for the coaxial design. Imaging is fantastic. JBL 305 mkII for it's waveguide and silk dome, and I have a small Tannoy with supertweeter on flat baffle (the only speaker allowed in the livingroom by the wife). Magnepans, B&W, several JBLs has been around but had to go... (What I really, really want is a bigger room (and more cash) so I could keep them all (and play louder), but that will take time. I have to buy lottery tickets.)

Meanwhile, what I have makes me happy and content . I have a Big Knob passive monitor controller, making realtime A/B switching 100% transparent, all I get is the frequency response/imaging shift - the differences. Lovely game, everything becomes obvious, completely independent on memory .

Dagfinn

 

[srrxr71]

Interesting. Why did you choose say Trinnov vs. Dirac. If you take the sub integration out, and stay with the 2 channels, do you see Trinnov as much better icing than Dirac could provide? Why, how, etc.?

I haven’t compared Dirac honestly. I’ve always wanted it but the thing about Trinnov that got me is that microphone.

On some intuitive level calibrating with that microphone array where the positions of each microphone is known and whatever it does with that data has to be taking more factors into consideration than even an averaging single mic multi point calibration.

Trinnov also supports multi point calibration as well.

It doesn’t hurt that the people who make the music we listen to also tend to adopt the Trinnov system.

 

[srrxr71]

Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that we got away from physics and into philosophy.

The title of this thread “end game” necessitates getting into philosophy. How do we define “end game”?

We have to look at who we are and some of our psychological tendencies. For whatever reason we are majority male. We might have tendencies like OCD (not making any diagnosis here). We tend to be a group of chasers. Always chasing something. Always remembering something else with the tinge of nostalgia.

It’s human nature to focus on what is “wrong” instead of appreciating what is right about any situation.

Someone could come and listen to and measure my “end game” system and find a hundred things “wrong” with it.

I couldn’t be bothered. There is so much right going on that my mind couldn’t be bothered with it all at this point.

There needs to come a point where you simply feel gratitude and blessed with what you have. At least for me.

 

[FrantzM]

Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that we got away from physics and into philosophy.

The title of this thread “end game” necessitates getting into philosophy. How do we define “end game”?

We have to look at who we are and some of our psychological tendencies. For whatever reason we are majority male. We might have tendencies like OCD (not making any diagnosis here). We tend to be a group of chasers. Always chasing something. Always remembering something else with the tinge of nostalgia.

It’s human nature to focus on what is “wrong” instead of appreciating what is right about any situation.

Someone could come and listen to and measure my “end game” system and find a hundred things “wrong” with it.

I couldn’t be bothered. There is so much right going on that my mind couldn’t be bothered with it all at this point.

There needs to come a point where you simply feel gratitude and blessed with what you have. At least for me.

Hi

If I am not mistaken your system has Genelec 83xx + W371A as main speakers? controlled/corrected by Trinnov Pre/Pro? I also assume, the system is in a reasonably treated room, calibrated and the results of the calibration, vouched for by Trinnov fabled customer support?
That is endgame.
Anyone who dare suggest, the contrary is either delusional, clueless or jealous.

Peace.

 

[srrxr71]

Hi

If I am not mistaken your system has Genelec 83xx + W371A as main speakers? controlled/corrected by Trinnov Pre/Pro? I also assume, the system is in a reasonably treated room, calibrated and the results of the calibration, vouched for by Trinnov fabled customer support?
That is endgame.
Anyone who dare suggest, the contrary is either delusional, clueless or jealous.

Peace.

I have not yet had Trinnov to calibrate for me. I want to play around a little on my own first.

I do have a GRADE report though which satisfies me.

 

[MKR]

Hi

If I am not mistaken your system has Genelec 83xx + W371A as main speakers? controlled/corrected by Trinnov Pre/Pro? I also assume, the system is in a reasonably treated room, calibrated and the results of the calibration, vouched for by Trinnov fabled customer support?
That is endgame.
Anyone who dare suggest, the contrary is either delusional, clueless or jealous.

Peace.

Well, it’s not end game for me … does that make me delusional, clueless, and jealous?

 

[MKR]

Hard to say honestly. I haven’t tried the system without it all. But I do know that my rt60 stays under 200ms for the entire range.

Maybe if I sat a lot closer it wouldn’t be. Also I don’t use them in cardoid mode. I use them in complementary mode.

I can say that my left monitor still has a dip around 55Hz. It’s unavoidable. (Unless I try moving it) The 2 woofers work down to 60Hz so all the cancellation and optimization tricks work down to there. Under that nothing really can help it beyond adding more subs in other locations to try to mitigate that dip.

The amount of room treatment it would take to correct at 55Hz would be insane. I would have to try 1.55m thickness of absorption in the left 2 corners. Or I could try tuned bass traps at 55Hz which would only be useful for this exact positioning and be useless if I move things around.

Alternatively maybe PSI AVAA.

So to mitigate that I did pick up some rhythmik subs and a Trinnov Nova to integrate it all.

I’m not using those subs because I haven’t really been bothered to integrate them and also the overall amount of bass being pumped through the system is too much in this urban environment. There are other houses about 20-25 feet away. It’s just too much.

Being on the second floor and the garage being under me it seems the garage really amplifies the bass from above. So I would have to treat the garage and the garage door. It’s all getting past the point where it will increase my satisfaction with the system.

The Trinnov just using the Genelec woofers really “focuses” the bass for lack of a better term. Overall it’s more than enough for me and fixing that 55Hz dip probably isn’t going to change my enjoyment.

Post Trinnov there is still a -3.5 dB dip in the left monitor at 54.5Hz. I’m past caring about it.

I can move things around and try to fix it. I started experimenting with moving the monitors further apart and the subjective increase in soundstage width by far beats trying to fix that dip. I am still experimenting but really slowly. I just like getting home on Friday and playing music.

One of these days I’ll play with the locations and try to tune it. Really since I got these I’ve had that philosophy of slowly tweaking things but mostly just enjoying it.

Do I understand correctly you are not using the cardioid capability of the W371?

 

[FrantzM]

Well, it’s not end game for me … does that make me delusional, clueless, and jealous?

The difference is that it may not be "The End Game" but for what you and I perceive as "end game", it is... So the difference is "the", the article

Peace.

 

[FrantzM]

I have not yet had Trinnov to calibrate for me. I want to play around a little on my own first.

I do have a GRADE report though which satisfies me.

Oh and by the way.. You took residence inside my "HATE list"



Peace

 

[srrxr71]

Do I understand correctly you are not using the cardioid capability of the W371?

I am not. As has been said on these forums before Genelec recommends complementary mode for most people.

That front 14” mid woofer just by its dimensions will have controlled dispersion.

I have tried it before and didn’t notice much difference but maybe I can try it again. In my case I wonder how much difference it would make as they are on the 35’ wall far from any side walls and also the room is well treated.

Any issues I have are found below 60Hz anyway and no system that I know of is cardioid below 60Hz.

The D&D 8c is cardioid down to 100Hz. The w371 is down to 60Hz afaik.

I don’t really know how to do the math to figure out how directional a 14” driver is and at what point it goes omnidirectional.

I could try to calibrate in cardiod mode tonight and see if it makes any difference. I think also I’ll bring them in a little closer.

The issue is output will go down in cardioid mode as the 2 drivers will be fighting each other in a sense. Right now they are covering for each other’s deficiencies due to their physical location.

 

[srrxr71]

Oh and by the way.. You took residence inside my "HATE list"



Peace

Also I’d like to add that the Trinnov product is still being worked on. For example there was a bug in the target curve drawing which has been fixed recently. So I’ll give them some time to work out some kinks before asking them to calibrate for me. Let the product mature.

Even GLM 5 changed the game with the new GRADE report showing the full 8361 + w371 FR graph. Before it showed only the 8361.

So GLM is being improved. GRADE is being improved. Trinnov Nova is being improved.

This system is the gift that keeps on giving. So many improvements being made in the background.

I’m pretty sure I bet on the right horse. It’s the same horse most of the people who make and will be making your music bet on.

When it comes to making ATMOS music there is no real alternative. Which other system can support and calibrate up to 128 monitors?

Heck Bang and Olufsen use Genelec GLM to do their R&D. There is nothing else they can use.

Bang & Olufsen Chooses Genelec for Its Virtual Reality Laboratory - Genelec.com

Danish electronics pioneer Bang & Olufsen has chosen Genelec SAM monitors to equip its new laboratory, which allows researchers at B&O’s Struer headquarters to create hyper-accurate simulations of how loudspeakers will sound in any given environment.

www.genelec.com

To each their own but the audiophile ethos is not for everyone to grow out of.

 

[MattHooper]

Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that we got away from physics and into philosophy.

The title of this thread “end game” necessitates getting into philosophy. How do we define “end game”?

We have to look at who we are and some of our psychological tendencies. For whatever reason we are majority male. We might have tendencies like OCD (not making any diagnosis here). We tend to be a group of chasers. Always chasing something. Always remembering something else with the tinge of nostalgia.

It’s human nature to focus on what is “wrong” instead of appreciating what is right about any situation.

Someone could come and listen to and measure my “end game” system and find a hundred things “wrong” with it.

I couldn’t be bothered. There is so much right going on that my mind couldn’t be bothered with it all at this point.

There needs to come a point where you simply feel gratitude and blessed with what you have. At least for me.

"End Game" gear for the audiophile is more about the individual's psychology than characteristics of the gear itself. It's less "I found a speaker that allowed me to get off the merry-go-round" and more "I finally allowed MYSELF to get off the merry-go-round."

There are audiophiles who are fully satisfied, with gear they've had for many years with not plans of changing, with gear that is all over the map. You have quad devotees, Maggie devotees, British Speaker devotees, Horn devotees, single driver/lowther devotees and everything else under the sun. So the satisfaction is intrinsic to the individual, not to properties of equipment.

I personally realize there will always be loudspeakers that do some things I like better than the one I have, so I (mostly) accept that. Though that was a reason I've usually kept more than one loudspeaker. Switching things up can scratch the "want a change" itch in of itself. (Hence I did not get rid of my Thiel 2.7s when I bought my Joseph Perspective 2 speakers - I like to switch between them).

 

[FrantzM]

A bit O.T.

At this point in time, I 'd like to listen to the following speakers in the same room
Revel Salon 2
Genelec 8351b/W371A or/&
Genelec 8361 alone (no W371A)
Neuman KH420
D&D 8C

Any of these is in my mind as close to end game as I would care..

Peace.

 

[srrxr71]

"End Game" gear for the audiophile is more about the individual's psychology than characteristics of the gear itself. It's less "I found a speaker that allowed me to get off the merry-go-round" and more "I finally allowed MYSELF to get off the merry-go-round."

There are audiophiles who are fully satisfied, with gear they've had for many years with not plans of changing, with gear that is all over the map. You have quad devotees, Maggie devotees, British Speaker devotees, Horn devotees, single driver/lowther devotees and everything else under the sun. So the satisfaction is intrinsic to the individual, not to properties of equipment.

I personally realize there will always be loudspeakers that do some things I like better than the one I have, so I (mostly) accept that. Though that was a reason I've usually kept more than one loudspeaker. Switching things up can scratch the "want a change" itch in of itself. (Hence I did not get rid of my Thiel 2.7s when I bought my Joseph Perspective 2 speakers - I like to switch between them).

I really like your first paragraph. I think it nails it.

However even these folks when they enter an audio store can still be sold on knick knacks. Cables risers quantum purifiers etc.

I know people who are fully satisfied with Bose 901 for example.

This forum though has that science driven aspect so we really do care about the objective side as well as the subjective side.

If you lean towards objectivity then you’ll want some of the darlings of this forum (we all know what those are) but when objectivity collides perfectly with subjectivity that’s when both sides of me are done.

 

[srrxr71]

Thanks, I hope you'll be happy too, I'm certain the result will sound fantastic! Those new D&D's will undoubtedly be spectacular, I'd buy them without even knowing other specs than "bigger than 8c"! But if you love the other more, get the other . Glad you're bringing the room into the picture properly, I'm sure you'll be happier for it.

For me, diversity is necessary. There are so many different speaker designs, which all sound different. Also, I'm an antiquarian - I like old things - specially those that work well and look good too. When I discovered the 1985 Genelec 1022a, I was sold. The design is almost timeless. Almost, because it is modern industrial design on a high level, clearly. At it's workhorse core is amazing sound, which is what it's all about. True ribbon tweeters, short horn/wave guides, non-diffraction sculpting, 12" woofer, front ported, tri-amped class AB, analog active c.o... , 27 kg - I can lift them . The 1022A has an iconic place in pro monitor history and audio production, it is my endgame speaker in it's category!
View attachment 354971
Next to them sits my other classic, 1983/1990 Greg Timbers designed JBL 250Ti, a totally different speaker. Big, dynamic, in the room sound - huge. Less neutral, perhaps - but I don't care at all - the bass-midbass-low mid is just sweet and also powerful. Having one driver covering the vocal range is special. I could go on about the design, but they represent something sonically very different, and sometimes more pleasing, from the Genelecs . Sorry, Gennies.

But since I'm curious about current speakers and designs, I've tried some more - just to experience the differences. I've kept some; 8030c is my modern nearfield reference, a used KEF R3 I got for the coaxial design. Imaging is fantastic. JBL 305 mkII for it's waveguide and silk dome, and I have a small Tannoy with supertweeter on flat baffle (the only speaker allowed in the livingroom by the wife). Magnepans, B&W, several JBLs has been around but had to go... (What I really, really want is a bigger room (and more cash) so I could keep them all (and play louder), but that will take time. I have to buy lottery tickets.)

Meanwhile, what I have makes me happy and content . I have a Big Knob passive monitor controller, making realtime A/B switching 100% transparent, all I get is the frequency response/imaging shift - the differences. Lovely game, everything becomes obvious, completely independent on memory .

Dagfinn

Wow I had no idea Genelec ever made ribbon speakers or anything with that design. Pretty impressive. Those guys don’t play.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I have a feeling he will end up buying the new bigger D&Ds, that is what I'd do (if I didn't like Genelec )

 

[srrxr71]

I have a feeling he will end up buying the new bigger D&Ds, that is what I'd do (if I didn't like Genelec )

Perfectly valid. IMHO just throw a Trinnov on it and you’re done.

Edit: having said that just imho I believe just intuitively in point source. There’s a post in here about a KEF driver being off by 0.5mm and the dip it caused in response.

Waves are VERY finicky period.

I was recently reading the D&D review here. There is a paragraph where he says to paraphrase loosely how amazed he was by their imaging. Astounding.

He did mention how great they were in directivity despite the spacing between the midpoint of the tweeter and midreange drivers.

I may be wrong but i’m just convinced that all waves down to about 300hz are best emitted from a single point in space.

It’s just a belief from my intuition. That’s about it.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Perfectly valid. IMHO just throw a Trinnov on it and you’re done.

Edit: having said that just imho I believe just intuitively in point source. There’s a post in here about a KEF driver being off by 0.5mm and the dip it caused in response.

Waves are VERY finicky period.

I was recently reading the D&D review here. There is a paragraph where he says to paraphrase loosely how amazed he was by their imaging. Astounding.

He did mention how great they were in directivity despite the spacing between the midpoint of the tweeter and midreange drivers.

I may be wrong but i’m just convinced that all waves down to about 300hz are best emitted from a single point in space.

It’s just a belief from my intuition. That’s about it.

Maybe the new D&D will be a coaxial who knows
He didn't like Genelec or KEF so not many coaxial options left (except Geithain )

 

[srrxr71]

Maybe the new D&D will be a coaxial who knows
He didn't like Genelec or KEF so not many coaxial options left (except Geithain )

Yeah for sure he has some info we don’t have. Haha. I’m for any advancement period. Things do get better with time. It’s just that these days it’s a lot slower than it used it be.

I’m all for D&D to do something mind blowing. I hope they do.

All progress is great. I’ll just wait a decade or so and re evealute then.

I mean come on. There are moments my brain can’t process what my ears are sending it. One tends to lose one’s composure at hearing what these can do. Just imho. Haha.

 

[MKR]

The difference is that it may not be "The End Game" but for what you and I perceive as "end game", it is... So the difference is "the", the article

Peace.

Again, Genelec is not end game for me. But of course I am very happy that it is for others