Lack of 2.1 support is grinding my gears

[popej]

AV receivers - but you’re spending 4 figures for something where you don’t use most of the functionality, and where the amp and DAC aren’t as good as far cheaper options.

Have you included price of streamer, bass management, room correction in this calculation? IMHO value for money for an AVR usually is much better than for a set of discrete stereo components. Almost like one can get extra channels for free.

All this assuming, that one can assess which technical parameters are good enough not to worry about them. Otherwise, one will be doomed to constantly strive for perfection

 

[Timcognito]

New to "bass management" and would like to try a sub with my 2 channel amp but the amp a Marantz model 40n has a sub output but no low pass filter for the mains which (if I'm correct) means the mains will get all low freq. along with sub so if I'm not happy with main speakers bass I'll still get it & just get more of it with a sub which has me thinking it will just a mess. In reading post I realized I havent thought of some type of added cross over for the mains. Is there something simple that would work for my situation ?
Thanks

Many subs come with amplification and DSP apps that contain an auto or settable low pass filter plus many other features, SVS, Elac, REL to name a few. Makes sub integration easy and you can use your phone or tablet from your listening position, so don't have crawl on the floor or behind a piece of furniture.

 

[levimax]

Many subs come with amplification and DSP apps that contain an auto or settable low pass filter plus many other features, SVS, Elac, REL to name a few. Makes sub integration easy and you can use your phone or tablet from your listening position, so don't have crawl on the floor or behind a piece of furniture.

There is one huge downside to DSP built into the sub and that is delay. For SVS the delay is ~6ms whether you use DSP features or not. The Sub DSP allows for even "more delay" but depending on where you are placing the subs this may not work without being able to delay the mains. Sub integration is hard and to do it right you need "full control" of the separate channel(s) for the sub(s) allowing for not just the crossover filters and possibly summing to mono but also the ability to adjust the timing between the subs and the mains.

 

[anotherhobby]

There is one huge downside to DSP built into the sub and that is delay. For SVS the delay is ~6ms whether you use DSP features or not. The Sub DSP allows for even "more delay" but depending on where you are placing the subs this may not work without being able to delay the mains. Sub integration is hard and to do it right you need "full control" of the separate channel(s) for the sub(s) allowing for not just the crossover filters and possibly summing to mono but also the ability to adjust the timing between the subs and the mains.

Good call out. A real example to illustrate your point, my mains need to be delayed by 4.5 ms. Not possible unless your DSP is in front of both the subs and the mains.

 

[Timcognito]

Just looked up the Marantz 40n and it has onboard subwoofer controls

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

We have been led to believe that AVR are inferior because they are not as high performance as separates. There is some truth to that in the matter of pure performance metrics in most (many?) cases but AVRs, the better ones anyway, provide an extraordinary high level of functionality, not present in separates and likely unavailable as stand alone products... Waiting for Bass management, DRC in separates ... cricket sounds? I thought so . I favor Denon and Marantz because they have Audyssey and in particular Audyssey Dynamic EQ. A game changer if there just one ...
I can understand the search, the chase, the journey for uber-specs, High SINAD! Extended FR to the MHz!! 250 wpc @ 8 Ohms... Blue vu meters .. Not
After 50+ years in the hobby . I have come to those conclusions:

1. SINAD above 80 dB is good enough for the purpose of listening to music
2. For the most part, 100 wpc is sufficient for most home listening situation with most speakers this side of 85 dB/W/m at 8 ohms.
3. In the bass the room dominates, thus, you must EQ/DSP
4. DRC/DSP is essential in the bass... DRC seems to be desirable elsewhere, if you can't get your head and budget around Rooms treatments; although a minimum is required, first reflections attenuation... Reduce floor and ceiling bounce, etc.....
5. Subwoofers are essential in most situations
6. Denon and Marantz NVR seem to have one of the best DRC in the business: Audyssey. I know there is strong buzz about DIRAC, but there is no conclusive proof it is better than Audyssey... Anecdotal reports point toward the contrary ...

I'd advise an AVR, preferable Denon or Marantz that can support Audyssey XT-32
A UMik-1 measurements microphone
REW
MSO (optional) but so useful.
Audyssey MultEQ-X Windows App, It is so much better than people credit it of... It is a Powerhouse of a software. Takes you a long while to get a hang of it, although decent results can be achieved in a rather reasonable amount of time
AVR all the way

Happy holidays

Peace.

 

[dweeeeb2]

I hear your frustration TC, I couldn’t believe how limited we are for 2.x . Ive just gone the miniDSP HTx cause Im sick of wanting to “upgrade” functionality (HTx has hdmi, rca and balanced I/O) I couldn’t figure out how to crossover with a pc and even if I could it limited the inputs….argh.

 

[popej]

For SVS the delay is ~6ms whether you use DSP features or not.

This is equivalent to about 2m distance. May be comparable to real difference in distances between speakers and subwoofer. This is a problem, which exist even without DSP. You can try to use phase correction, if your subwoofer supports it, but the real solution is a proper bass management.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Part of the problem is a generic DAC doesn't do volume, let alone the DSP needed to separate out bass in one feed and non-bass in the other. As soon as you add anything DSP based that's more complicated than volume management, you need some sort of user interface, which is surprisingly tricky to do, given the various options required. The demand is quite small, so the development is expensive and drives the price up further. And the cheapest AVRs are in the same ballpark, so competition is tough.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Part of the problem is a generic DAC doesn't do volume, let alone the DSP needed to separate out bass in one feed and non-bass in the other. As soon as you add anything DSP based that's more complicated than volume management, you need some sort of user interface, which is surprisingly tricky to do, given the various options required. The demand is quite small, so the development is expensive and drives the price up further. And the cheapest AVRs are in the same ballpark, so competition is tough.

I keep get drawn back to the fact that the WiiM amp does this, despite being only £299, and including a streamer and amplification.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I keep get drawn back to the fact that the WiiM amp does this, despite being only £299, and including a streamer and amplification.

I will let you know what it’s like when I get mine. Happy to be a UK Guinea pig.

 

[Matt_Holland]

As a general point to this thread, it just shows you what a narrow path the 2-ch market has gone down when there are so few receivers with just stereo processing and power amplification. HDMI input, EQ/room correction and bass/sub management are vital to extract the best sound from a system and room, yet the audiophile market has made a whole section of their customer allergic to these features who, as a result, would rather spend hours adjusting toe-in by 0.5deg increments and worrying about cables.

 

[AaronJ]

Just adding a sub for 2.1 and setting a preferred crossover point may not provide all the benefits you’re looking for. I can’t recommend minidsp highly enough. 99% of the music I listen to is vinyl with vintage gear and still don’t consider my analog signal too precious to be “tainted” by ADC to DAC for the room correction and sub integration. In fact, my 2.2 system sounds miles better than my prior 2.1 due to the elimination of suck-outs that can’t be filled with DSP.

Edit: for reference my system uses a MiniDSP Flex running Dirac live looped into the pre-out-main-in of my integrated amp (something which the previously linked Outlaw amp has) and a pair of B&W ASW608’s sitting under a pair of Revel M106 speakers. The music I listen to doesn’t really go any deeper than the Revels can handle but my room has a pretty big suck out around 70 Hz and peak at 105 Hz which Dirac live nearly flattens entirely with the second sub. I have the crossover set at 100 Hz to take a lot of the load off the amp that puts out only 32 watts. I am so happy with the system now that I have lost all feelings of upgradeitits and am relieved to just be enjoying music as much as I ever have.

 

[Sokel]

You can get a "pro" active crossover for around $100 USD. The miniDSP is also popular among "audiophiles".

I wouldn't suggest those:

Cheap analog electronic crossover

Additional "asking for a friend" questions: Would the DC PSU Motronix sells be quieter than an AC transformer? Should the PSU be kept separate from the crossover (mounted in a separate box)? Should the box be metal or is plastic OK? Are there other considerations for keeping things quiet (hum...

www.audiosciencereview.com

On the other hand if one knows exactly the needs of the rig can get (or built) a perfectly transparent el. analog x-over.
Just have a look at this silly 40$ little thing I measured in the above thread (and forget the horrible behri ) which just maxed my ancient measuring rig and it did better that the miniDSP with the filters applied at the time I measured it and cause the amazing thread about the rising noise floor which forced miniDSP to apply some fix.

I suspect that even the Rolls @anotherhobby (apart from the rest of it's problems with these silly pots) was on par with miniDSP cause it was measured with it's filters on.

But again,one must know exactly what it needs and the ones who have advanced skills can even do to the amps response builting them on purpose,relieving them from the extra bandwidth.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Just adding a sub for 2.1 and setting a preferred crossover point may not provide all the benefits you’re looking for. I can’t recommend minidsp highly enough. 99% of the music I listen to is vinyl with vintage gear and still don’t consider my analog signal too precious to be “tainted” by ADC to DAC for the room correction and sub integration. In fact, my 2.2 system sounds miles better than my prior 2.1 due to the elimination of suck-outs that can’t be filled with DSP.

Edit: for reference my system uses a MiniDSP Flex running Dirac live looped into the pre-out-main-in of my integrated amp (something which the previously linked Outlaw amp has) and a pair of B&W ASW608’s sitting under a pair of Revel M106 speakers. The music I listen to doesn’t really go any deeper than the Revels can handle but my room has a pretty big suck out around 70 Hz and peak at 105 Hz which Dirac live nearly flattens entirely with the second sub. I have the crossover set at 100 Hz to take a lot of the load off the amp that puts out only 32 watts. I am so happy with the system now that I have lost all feelings of upgradeitits and am relieved to just be enjoying music as much as I ever have.

Now room correction is another matter, and I appreciate Minidsp is one way to go.

I’m not expecting all my hi-fi problems to be solved, but the ability to set a crossover between sub and mains should at least solve the issues I’m aiming to solve.

 

[bodhi]

Now room correction is another matter, and I appreciate Minidsp is one way to go.

It also happens to matter, a lot. I just don't see why anyone would want to run subs without correction.

Any issues you might solve using just a crossover would pale in comparison to messy bass response.

 

[mdsimon2]

I keep get drawn back to the fact that the WiiM amp does this, despite being only £299, and including a streamer and amplification.

I may be behind on the latest Wiim amp capabilities, but it seems lacking in comparison to a true multichannel DSP solution.

Last I read, setting the subwoofer LPF applies an identical frequency/slope HPF to the powered output. This will not result in good sub/main integration as it ignores impact of the main speaker roll-off in the crossover.

It also does not have individual output channel delays; this is especially important if your subwoofer has some sort of processing delay.

And does not have individual output channel PEQ which limits main/sub integration even further.

Michael

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

It also happens to matter, a lot. I just don't see why anyone would want to run subs without correction.

Any issues you might solve using just a crossover would pale in comparison to messy bass response.

You might not see why, and that’s entirely up to you. But someone could pop up and start talking about room correction, and someone else some other factor.

This thread isn’t about that, so thanks for the input, but let’s please stay on topic.

Many thanks.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I may be behind on the latest Wiim amp capabilities, but papplies an identical frequency/slope HPF to the powered output. This will not result in good sub/main integration as it ignores impact of the main speaker roll-off in the crossover.

It also does not have individual output channel delays; this is especially important if your subwoofer has some sort of processing delay.

And does not have individual output channel PEQ which limits main/sub integration even further.

Michael

I may be behind on the latest Wiim amp capabilities, but it seems lacking in comparison to a true multichannel DSP solution.

Last I read, setting the subwoofer LPF applies an identical frequency/slope HPF to the powered output. This will not result in good sub/main integration as it ignores impact of the main speaker roll-off in the crossover.

It also does not have individual output channel delays; this is I may be behind on the latest Wiim amp capabilities, but it seems lacking in comparison to a true multichannel DSP solution. important if your subwoofer has some sort of processing delay.

And does not have individual output channel PEQ which limits main/sub integration even further.

Michael

Just to engage with a few of those points.

I may be behind on the latest Wiim amp capabilities, but it seems lacking in comparison to a true multichannel DSP solution.

This is true. It also doesn’t come speakers, a free lifetime subscription to Amazon Music HD, or a free coffee maker. Nor does it claim to. Let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Last I read, setting the subwoofer LPF applies an identical frequency/slope HPF to the powered output. This will not result in good sub/main integration as it ignores impact of the main speaker roll-off in the crossover.

Cheers. Where did you read that?

It also does not have individual output channel delays; this is important if your subwoofer has some sort of processing delay.

I believe you're you’re right. As I say, I don’t think anyone’s claiming it’s perfect.

And does not have individual output channel PEQ which limits main/sub integration even further.

This is true, certainly at the moment. But there may be upgrades - indeed, having PEQ at all is an upgrade on how the original Mini, Pro and Pro Plus shipped.

But that’s how it goes. You have no PEQ, people want PEQ. You have 4 band, people want 12. You have mono they want stereo. You have 12 band stereo people want 50 channel Dolby Atmos.

I’m not sure there’s a lot of mileage in continuing a discussion about what a product can’t do - you could have a £50,000 system and there’d by flaws to be noted if you looked hard enough.

A sub out with bass management is better than no sub out, or a sub out without bass management.

Let’s not go off on a tangent. We really don’t want this thread turning into “if you don’t buy minidsp (or similar) you’re an idiot”.

But thanks for your contribution - it’s all good for thought.

 

[LouB]

Just looked up the Marantz 40n and it has onboard subwoofer controls
View attachment 337461

Yes it does but it only controls the feq. that go to the sub woofer & all feq. still go the mains, it's simply a 2 feq filter for the sub output. My thought is that a true hi pass/low pass filter or some type of crossover will get the real low bass freq. out of mains and let the sub handle those.