OP
- Thread Starter
- #61
Until you try it with 100 headphones and realize that it is anything but so.
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Dan Clark E3 Headphone Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
But we already have the in situ measurements to know that this won't happen anyway. You're saying that if individuals A and B there were to apply the same filters based on measurements performed on a fixture, for some magical reason the filters would be applied differently and they'd get the same in situ response ?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #63
If you don't have a protocol for fixture mounting, you will get wild variations. But when you develop one, you can get far better correlation. And repeatability. Dan's measurements closely mirror mine for examples. That is, if you use the GRAS 45 fixture. If you use a HATS like 5128, all I can say is good luck to you!Not really. I've already shown that graph before, but I don't think that it's sunk in enough on ASR what this :
This isn't about measurements performed on a fixture. This is about how the same sample of a pair of headphones varies in FR when worn by 10+ individuals.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #65
People don't hear those variations. And they quickly adapt. Does your headphone sound wildly different every time you put it on? It doesn't, right?
The goal here is to get in the ballpark. It is not, and cannot ever be precise. A compass is hugely useful if you are lost in a jungle even though it is not remotely as accurate as a GPS.
In your view they'd adapt to a 10db+ difference below 100Hz ? That seems like an untenable position to me.
Well some yes. The Stealth did vary a lot with positioning for me.
Besides a pair of headphones can be quite stable on your head and yet still shows high inter-individual variation. Ie the K371 varies less in situ on my head with repeated seatings than the inter-individual variation shown in Rtings' review. This could be explained by a number of variables, such as geometry of one's head where the pads sit.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #67
In my view there is no 10dB+ variation without extraneous factors.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #68
Skip to the next piece of music and there would be more variations there. None of this the reason to ditch targets and just use a wet thumb to evaluate headphone fidelity.
Before getting into testing headphones, I read all the literature and it was easily to conclude that there are so many variations here that nothing good can come out of it. Then I got the GRAS 45CA and it took just a few measurements to see how powerful it is to guide you toward a) neutral sound and b) highly enjoyable sound. That has only been reenforced over the countless headphones and IEMs I have tested.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Yes, baffled (pun intended) me too. There seems to be a bit more going on than just seal.
I would like to get my fixture (and ears) on a pair.
Maybe visit Delft again he'll probably have one.
I hate to order one from Thomann and then return it and misuse their return policy.
If the seal behaves anything like most other planars it should behave well but I suspect some nifty trickery is going on because Dan seems to be one of the rare designers that can acoustically 'boost' the natural low bass for planar drivers and that even in a way that it follows Harman extremely closely.
Here is the seal response of 2 other (open) planars (my target, not Harman target):
Edition XS:
Avantone Pro Planar:
And a smaller sized driver Sundara (2021):
Breaking the seal usually reduces bass extension but lifts low bass.
Would be interesting to see how these DCA react to a similar seal breakage.
It should be noted that above planars are open yet might still be comparable because all of them have a closed front volume and no acoustic resistors to the rear volume.
Not even a pressure equalization hole.
I expect the DCA to have none either but could be wrong.
Anyways... nothing standard about my DIY measurements but the trend is clearly visible.
Below the closed AH-D5200 (dynamic driver) that almost does not react to seal breakage (by design):
And the mentioned AKG K371:
The ATH-M50X is more representative in bass drop-off when breaking the seal for closed headphones:
Closed HD598CS:
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Very Nice !
With this kind of price, now you get my interest.
Stealth is priced way above what I'm ready to spend on headphones.
I still would like to see isolation measured (vs Frequency) for closed headphones, because that's an important criteria for those.
With this kind of price, now you get my interest.
Stealth is priced way above what I'm ready to spend on headphones.
I still would like to see isolation measured (vs Frequency) for closed headphones, because that's an important criteria for those.
Exactly my feeling.
When you apply those corrections, it works.
I like to still tune bass (and trebble - I'm not getting any younger) somehow, but simple bass/trebble control is enough from there.
I really wasn’t looking at headphones anymore since I got my DCA Noire (i think they are wonderful without EQ for movies and my Vinyl setup) … and I absolutely love my Meze Liric with EQ for my Roon Setup.
But these really look like they would be a nice upgrade to the Noire
price is not that bad either (just assuming they won’t cost 25% more in the EU).
But these really look like they would be a nice upgrade to the Noire
price is not that bad either (just assuming they won’t cost 25% more in the EU).
It means that Dan has sense of humorWhat is ment by "Frequency response. Yes, it has one", please ?
But for real this spec is abused by manufacturers so they can state 8hz-4000khz which means absolutely completely nothing and it's pointless. So Dan is not playing this game.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
What is ment by "Frequency response. Yes, it has one", please ?
There can be several ones depending on the used test fixture and target.
Which one is the 'correct' one and why ?
This is a very valid concern.
Comparing FR on the same fixture(s) is what FR is all about and to see what might need correcting in the 100Hz to 6kHz range. Above and below that range it can only comply to a specific fixture and your ears, way of wearing the headphone and other factors may very well (even quite likely) not comply to that specific standard.
Obviously Dan measures headphones and could post that but understand the reluctance as one would also have to describe test conditions, target, seal and whatnot.
Quoting 'numbers' based on a (or several or averaged) measurements is equally useful, certainly when the so called cut-off points aren't mentioned.
Just like publishing a single 'distortion' number at a single frequency at a specific level on a specific fixture under specific circumstances is equally pointless.
Even power rating is 'difficult' and efficiency/sensitivity are not accurate/representative.
Weight, inner pad dimensions are easy to measure reliably.
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It actually doesn't matter but people were asking him what's frequency response so he began being sarcastic about it:What is ment by "Frequency response. Yes, it has one", please ?
Since bigger numbers activates neurones of ignorant people manufacturers tries to show up bigger numbers to make customers to think their product is better. I've seen some people choose headphones that has higher frequency response and talking about how much higher frequencies sound good, even though healthy young people can't hear above 20 kHz and none of any of instrument won't go pass above 16 kHz (source)
Awesome product. An open version of this might be the only thing drawing me away from my HD800S one day.
Though comfort is a huge factor for me, and when I demo'd the Expanse it wasn't quite comfortable to me. Stupid glasses being the biggest factor to comfort's detriment...
Though comfort is a huge factor for me, and when I demo'd the Expanse it wasn't quite comfortable to me. Stupid glasses being the biggest factor to comfort's detriment...
Yeah, good question, Dan Clark might be able to answer that one! Perhaps they're well made enough that the only item that will wear is the pads (which you can replace). I've had a few of my headphones (not Dan Clark) going back to 2015 and generally it's just the pads that need replacing if you look after them.
I'd say both are perfect from a practical point of view!
Let us know how it goes! But don't let my post pressure you, buy them if&when you want!
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