Audible difference in high-end capacitors? - ABX samples

[SIY]

I think it is very insulting to imply or explicitly say that the test was fraud or on purpose done wrong.

What if it is? Which is clearly the case here.

 

[test1223]

Well, I can play the victim as well: I find it insulting that we’re supposed to treat these videos seriously… so now what? We’re both insulted…

There are thousands other good explanations why the test was conducted in this way. So why you choose to use the interpretation where the autor looks the worst?

What if it is? Which is clearly the case here.

Clearly the case? Even the simple explanation that he thinks or had thought his test is or was good enough to prove his point is next to impossible for you? Come on!

 

[fpitas]

We’re both insulted…

Me too!

 

[SIY]

Clearly the case?

Yes. There's soooooo much information out there on how to run the tests properly that it takes some effort to avoid it. Of course, properly run tests won't generate clicks and revenue, so of course they're ignored. It's not like this is the first (or even the fiftieth) guy to pull this nonsense.

 

[ctrl]

I know that you are almost always very constructive and even the post I am criticizing wasn't that badly insulting but none of the less I think the way you worded your post was disrespectful for example the "blind test" part or to frame it as laughable and therefore it isn't helpful to get any constructive work going. This upsets me since this behavior is more common here at ASR than in a lot of other places. So it triggered me and I want to address it.

So I've explained it several times now, I laughed at the absurdity at the end of second video, where the test person, if we assume "capacitor sound" in the audible frequency range is a real thing, instead of using the best sounding capacitor for him, which unfortunately was rather cheap, he ends up with the most expensive capacitor in the speaker, which he found unconvincing in the listening test - i mean, you can't make stuff like that up.

Well, I didn't find the "blind test" laughable, I never said that. What I did say is that the "blind tests" were decidedly flawed. I have explained the details in the previous posts.
In the end it was a promotional video for the manufacturer with some bashing of a competitor.

It is exactly because of such tests/reviews/"blind test" that this thread and my mini series exist.

When the impulse response measurements and all analysis derived from them show that there is virtually no difference between a standard film capacitor and an expensive high-end film capacitor with identical capacitance, ABX listening tests show no statistical discriminability (at least when I do it) and the null test, using real music, clearly shows (in the valid range 1kHz to 20kHz of the test setup) that it will be virtually impossible to perceive a difference, the facts are actually clear.


Videos with such obviously flawed "blind tests" do not help inform consumers.
The principle of not directly disproving facts, but instead sowing doubt about them in order to devalue the facts, is known as "manufacturing doubt".
Videos like this contribute to this - don't get me wrong, I don't think the creator of the video used this as a deliberate strategy.
Such video sowing doubts that benefit the manufacturers of "useless expensive" products, so that they can continue to push their products on consumers with the unproven promise of staggering sound improvements.

Damn, after watching the video even I wondered if, contrary to physics, there might be secret signals besides the measured impulse response and I have found the opposite in four reviews

 

[MAB]

i mean, you can't make stuff like that up.

I watched and unfortunately don't speak German, so I wasn't sure if the auto-translator was making things up... It's really quite unbelievable. You mentioned this before, thanks for confirming.

 

[voodooless]

Clearly the case? Even the simple explanation that he thinks or had thought his test is or was good enough to prove his point is next to impossible for you? Come on!

So now you imply he’s stupid or ignorant? You better not mean that in an insulting way…

 

[thewas]

Instead of criticizing our criticism you could have better spend your time doing so on his channel which I refrained as I don't believe the flaws were a result of lacking knowledge but of a desired outcome. Good luck and please keep up us informed of the outcome!

As I had predicted he is not ignorant but clearly knows what he wants to achieve as he was offered even a bet with a real blind test which he ignored and even deleted comments around that:

https://www.diy-hifi-forum.eu/forum...nkondensatoren&p=342994&viewfull=1#post342994 (in German language)

 

[voodooless]

As I had predicted he is not ignorant but clearly knows what he wants to achieve as he was offered even a bet with a real blind test which he ignored and even deleted comments around that:

https://www.diy-hifi-forum.eu/forum...nkondensatoren&p=342994&viewfull=1#post342994 (in German language)

So that leaves stupid and or disingenuous...

 

[BDWoody]

For a moment, I was thinking of doing a listening test about capacitors in crossovers with some industry people here at my place and making a video. But honesty, the reaction to Franks testing made it clear to me that whatever result it will have, the usual people will tell us that it's all wrong or marketing or Bla Bla.

I think that would be a great contribution, assuming it was done with enough rigor to be meaningful and useful as actual *evidence,* unlike the video that was posted. He should expect people to laugh if he is expecting to be taken seriously with that nonsense. There are enough people here who could help with putting together a solid methodology that would minimize the risk of being dismissed because it's a joke to begin with, so why not give it a good faith effort?

Setting up a test like this isn't trivial, but isn't beyond the realm of someone with your technical competence.

 

[voodooless]

Setting up a test like this isn't trivial, but isn't beyond the realm of someone with your technical competence

Not to mention that we have a significant number of people here that either have the knowledge to contribute, or even have the experience of doing these kinds of tests professionally. And even physical help is probably not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[esl 63]

Oh dear lord.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48323925_Applying_physics_makes_auditory_sense_a_new_paradigm_in_hearing

Please antcollinet do me a favour and try to be polite. No need to be ignorant. Read this paper page 27 and you can read once again... that our ear is creating it´s own 2nd harmonic. Thats why I question the THD figure, that does not take into consideration order of the measured harmonics. You can NOT compare 0.1% 2nd harmonic with 0.1% 7th harmonic. Our hearing will not notice 2nd harmonic if added to music but the 7th will be picked 10 out of 10. I do have a problem with the non scientific THD as a measure of sound quality. But hey! If you just want to measure some gears just for fun I deeply apologize. For those interested in audio science in the broader perspective incl sound quality or sound experience this IS an important factor. And i guess that everyone knows someone who like their tube amps? Why do they? Low THD? Nope.... probably not. Even a 741 Op amp is doing a better job than a tube amp. But this is about capacitors. They shall be measured and evaluated as described by several others here.

 

[IPunchCholla]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48323925_Applying_physics_makes_auditory_sense_a_new_paradigm_in_hearing

Please antcollinet do me a favour and try to be polite. No need to be ignorant. Read this paper page 27 and you can read once again... that our ear is creating it´s own 2nd harmonic. Thats why I question the THD figure, that does not take into consideration order of the measured harmonics. You can NOT compare 0.1% 2nd harmonic with 0.1% 7th harmonic. Our hearing will not notice 2nd harmonic if added to music but the 7th will be picked 10 out of 10. I do have a problem with the non scientific THD as a measure of sound quality. But hey! If you just want to measure some gears just for fun I deeply apologize. For those interested in audio science in the broader perspective incl sound quality or sound experience this IS an important factor. And i guess that everyone knows someone who like their tube amps? Why do they? Low THD? Nope.... probably not. Even a 741 Op amp is doing a better job than a tube amp. But this is about capacitors. They shall be measured and evaluated as described by several others here.

from the Prologue:

Despite the many years that we have unsuccessfully attempted to achieve publica-
tion, thwarted by inexplicable problems during review – familiar phenomena des-
cribed by Thomas Kuhn as part of the inevitable process during a scientific revolu-
tion ultimately leading to a paradigm shift – my co-author and I, both remain
committed to the possibility of furthering our respective fields of science.
We are therefore convinced that we are obliged to bring all of these insights to your
notice in the form of this booklet.

I would keep reading if they addressed those "inexplicable" problems during peer review. As in post the reviewers issues and addressed them. As it is we have a self published paper by authors who proudly state inn an unironical manner that they "think outside the box", which is of course the most box bound way of saying you're a free thinker.

I certainly am not qualified to review their work, but I am curious about this statement, since if it is correct, points to a vast gap in my knowledge that I need to fill:

The viscosity coefficient of perilymph fluid is approximately three times that of
water, and perilymph is therefore still considered to be a low viscous fluid. The
velocity of sound wave propagation inside this liquid is comparable with the speed
of sound in water, which is approximately 1500 m/s. If this is combined with the
travelling wave equation 0000000000, where 0is the propagation velocity of the
wave in m/s, ݂the frequency in Hz and ߣthe wavelength in m, it is clear that even
for the highest audible frequency of 20 kHz, its 75 mm wavelength does not even fit
the length of the basilar membrane, which measures 35 mm

 

[voodooless]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48323925_Applying_physics_makes_auditory_sense_a_new_paradigm_in_hearing

This is probably something @j_j might have a professional opinion about.

 

[SIY]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48323925_Applying_physics_makes_auditory_sense_a_new_paradigm_in_hearing

Please antcollinet do me a favour and try to be polite. No need to be ignorant. Read this paper page 27 and you can read once again... that our ear is creating it´s own 2nd harmonic. Thats why I question the THD figure, that does not take into consideration order of the measured harmonics. You can NOT compare 0.1% 2nd harmonic with 0.1% 7th harmonic. Our hearing will not notice 2nd harmonic if added to music but the 7th will be picked 10 out of 10. I do have a problem with the non scientific THD as a measure of sound quality. But hey! If you just want to measure some gears just for fun I deeply apologize. For those interested in audio science in the broader perspective incl sound quality or sound experience this IS an important factor. And i guess that everyone knows someone who like their tube amps? Why do they? Low THD? Nope.... probably not. Even a 741 Op amp is doing a better job than a tube amp. But this is about capacitors. They shall be measured and evaluated as described by several others here.

Except that actual physical electronics and speakers don’t have seventh as dominant, and rarely any as significant. And of course, the cap stuff is sheer nonsense, no meaningful evidence behind it at all.

 

[egellings]

So, where does that voicing come from. When we measure two devices (eg a Denon and a Marantz) and they both have flat frequency response, inaudible noise, and inaudible distortion - where is the voicing?

To 'voice' electronics would mean to add distortion to them.

 

[fpitas]

To 'voice' electronics would mean to add distortion to them.

Unless we admit the mysterious and elusive X factor.

/

 

[egellings]

Unless we admit the mysterious and elusive X factor.

/

I do that on the listening end with a nice beer of my choice.

 

[j_j]

This is probably something @j_j might have a professional opinion about.

It's interesting that they propose an alternate mechanism for the "tuning" hypothesis I talk about as a good way to model the response of the cochlea. I have some doubts about the proposed function of the stapes mechanism they propose, in view of regarding the outer hair cells as a tuning mechanism rather than an amplifier as a way to accommodate the dynamic range . (I've never accepted the amplifier proposal, frankly, there is no other biological process that works at that rate, anywhere.)

As to shear, I see no reason to doubt shear does not occur, given the phase results of the "tuning" mechanism.

 

[j_j]

Unless we admit the mysterious and elusive X factor.

/

Sorry, we'll apply Occam's Razor to that. It's not necessary in this discussion.