I'm afraid that to chase every red-herring in that rant it would make the conversation even more unwweildy than it is.
You've certainly got a chip on your shoulder so I'm not going to keep spending time knocking it off.
I'm not, but nor was this the topic of contention. Stick to the points made about specifically what you're saying,
I have been doing exactly that. I know what I said; you have spun the conversation out of control.
I had written: But you can ALSO get fantastic performance from gear that is expensive and looks interesting/impressive/beautiful etc.
I gave the *specific example* of MBL 101 speakers. I find them to be really interesting, really cool looking, with sound that as I said, greatly impressed me. THAT is the claim I've been defending.
I haven't made a single claim about the performance/value of their amplifiers, DACS etc. I have only pointed out that they send their speakers, and amps and CD players, to be measured by a magazine with a VASTLY larger public profile than Amir's website has (though I love the work Amir does). To say MBL ought to instead be spending their resources shipping their often very heavy and no doubt expensive-to-ship equipment so that a small on-line website from which, even if the measurements are great, they'd get little to nothing out of it, is just...sorry...a desperate stance. It makes no economic sense and it's simply silly to make such a demand. If MBL had refused to send their stuff to Stereophile, or refused to let Stereophile make measurements for all the audio world to inspect THEN you could at least sensibly criticise that as suspicious. But to criticise MBL for not sending their stuff to Amir is a tantrum masquerading as an argument.
Further, you claimed that products like MBL are "not simply bought due to "performance", they're a pride of ownership ordeal." Which as I've pointed out, is just cheap psychoanalysis in the place of facts. To the degree that you mean to simply say people would have a pride of ownership, there's nothing wrong with that so it's moot point. To the degree you claim it's the driving factor, it doesn't fit the description of any audiophile I know (every audiophile I know is driven primarily by their love of music and audio gear). It misses the mark even in my case as my motivation was based on the fact I loved their sound and still do.
As I said, having heard a vast amount of high end and pro gear, I found the big MBL speakers had produced some of the most realistic sound I'd heard. That's not convincing to you? Cool. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm only reporting my experience and how MBL speakers have impressed me (as they have impressed an enoromous number of other people). If your stance is that you will only consider speakers that have been double-blind tested in a facility like Harman Kardon and come out on top (and why wouldn't you get the ones that always come out on top?)...that's your prerogative. You do you. Me, I like to have my options open to products beyond Revel.
I don't care how you buy your speakers. I'll buy mine by looking at measurements (when available) but ultimately by how they sound when I audition them. I'm good at getting a bead on how a speaker sounds even under less than ideal conditions (as Floyd says, we are pretty good at "hearing" through room effects to the essential sound of a speaker). I've never auditioned a speaker elsewhere and been surprised by the sound when I got it home. I HAVE however taken the occasional gamble on a speaker and bought it second hand unheard. If I didn't like it very soon after setting it up, I never grew to like them over months of living with them, which is why I don't still own them. And along the same lines, I have heard many speakers owned by friends (and also many that have passed through another pal's house who reviews audio gear) and never, over extended time, have I grown to like speakers that didn't grab me the first time I heard them. So...yeah...I do have experience justifying my claim never to have moved from apathetic about the sound of a speaker to really liking it. I'm not going to buy a speaker that, when I hear it, doesn't make me want to buy it. Even if they are Revel speakers that have been blind tested up the wazoo at HK.
If the claim was
"you would likely prefer Revel speakers in the HK blind listening tests" that MAY be true, as it's probable based on their research (though not, if IIRC 100 percent certain for any individual). Nothing I have said disputes that.
But if the claim is "
You ought to buy speakers that have been blind tested because you can't use your own sighted, subjective impressions to choose speakers you will like and enjoy" then that is clearly falsified by the fact I HAVE used my sighted, subjective impressions to purchase numerous speakers (that I still own) that have given me great pleasure for many decades. I'm using my own speaker auditions to get what I like, not to make scientific claims about which speakers are "better" or that would beat other speakers in blind tests. So if you are trying to make the case I'm silly or naive for relying on my sighted evaluations to choose speakers that I will find to sound wonderful in my home, your case will simply fail right out of the gate.
The actual rational people that will see the value of owning something that is scientifically proven to be state of the art, and also aesthetically wonderful, as well as from a brand with serious provenance and pedigree for such. This is where you flawed logic fails you miserably. You demean people with these lunacy-ridden machinations. To say anyone driven by scientific and sound testing methodology is devoid of emotions and ability to feel an emotional connection with their possessions.. What a condescending and disgustingly mentally gated view that is..
At this point you are hallucinating.
I can't imagine how you could have gotten that off point.
You had clearly pointed to the motivation of "pride of ownership" to cast aspersions on those who would buy something like MBL products.
I argued the movitations among most audiophiles has more to do with what they perceive to offer better sound (whether their perceptions are scientifically reliable or not).
Then YOU wrote of your own motivations:
And since pride of ownership is an aspect of these products, I'd like to be proud their products decimate others in the price range,
So one minute you are using "pride of ownership" to imply desparaging things about people who would buy MBL, but in the next moment you are saying how you would buy on specs so you can have
"pride of ownership" that your gear
"decimates others in their price range." And that is even in the case where you simply know your gear outperforms other gear,
even if it never comes to practical use (as you admitted). So in your case you are buying specs on "pride" even though they may not contribute at all to better sound. While you were derisive of other audiophile who you thought were buying on "pride" rather than better sound. As I pointed out, most "subjectivist" audiophiles I know are buying primarily based on what they take to be giving them better sound!
It is therefore perfectly reasonable for me to have pointed out that you seem as much or more driven by "pride of ownership" than sound, and are more motivated in that respect than for instance, I was in buying MBL, or others who I have known to buy MBL speakers, who at least believe their money was going to better sound. At the very least, you are tossing stones in glass houses when you talk of "pride of ownership" in disparaging tones about the motivations of others.
And that you imagine me to be saying
"anyone driven by scientific and sound testing methodology is devoid of emotions and ability to feel an emotional connection with their possessions"....is simply bizarre. There is NOTHING WRONG with anyone feeling a pride of ownership for what he buys! Whether it's you or anyone else! The point is whether that IS the primary motivation for why many audiophiles spend big money on audio gear, as you implied. A secondary point is that IF you are going to disparage those other audiophiles for buying with pride of ownership in mind, THEN you will have your hypocrisy pointed out to you, given the motivations you have expressed in your own "pride of ownership."
Clear, yet?
Anyway, at this point I don't care as you seem to be more in "someone is wrong on the internet mode" and I don't see this conversation getting any better.