Munich Hi-End

[Hypnotoad]

there is a segment of the market that doesn't care about measurements, or is actively skeptical/hostile towards them.

Yes, the ones with something to hide.

The cable makers have proven this game works just fine.

And with some speaker cables at $2,500.00 a foot they are making a fortune.

 

[Sal1950]

Not my experience.
In CHAMP cars there was frequently 4 secs a lap difference between quickest and slowest the Lola drivers. That is night and day in racing. Part of that was poor race engineers, but there is a marked difference in driver ability even at the top of the game IME.

I don't argue that, having a hard time explaining my thoughts.
If one car builder/design has a distinct advantage over others in the field, the superiority of that build in any area of performance will show itself irrespective of the drivers. If one manufacturers engine design, or body aero offers a advantage over another, the advantage will be seen over the spread of driver ability. We always know if one engine or chassis design is dominating just as we always know who the best drivers are in any particular series. But that best group of drivers will fail to perform if their equipment is sub-par.

 

[Tks]

Because if you're marketing to subjectivists, those testing results have more downside than upside.

By your own admission, there is a segment of the market that doesn't care about measurements, or is actively skeptical/hostile towards them.

If that is one's target market, you cater to their tastes.

The cable makers have proven this game works just fine.

Okay then what exactly are you attempting to convey? I'm telling that other guy, these sorts of companies at the VERY least appear as people trying to pull a fast-one like charlatans and snake-oil salesmen.

But these companies talk as if they are privy to knowledge and capabilities no one else has, and their products supposedly reflect this.

Thus again, I state incessantly, none of these companies will ever be taken seriously when people like me challenge them to prove their claims using the most regarded and objective scrutiny that has the highest confidence ratio of convincing us of actual reality: scientific testing.

They simply won't be taken serious until they fulfill this request. And anyone of their customers that defends them, or fans that defend them are inviting ridicule deservedly at the discretion of folks like me. If they want to circle jerk themselves in the privacy of their own circles, they are free to do so. But they won't go by unscathed when they spill their bile in public forums. At least not by me at least whenever I feel the need to reply and call their nonsense into question.

 

[watchnerd]

Okay then what exactly are you attempting to convey? I'm telling that other guy, these sorts of companies at the VERY least appear as people trying to pull a fast-one like charlatans and snake-oil salesmen.

But these companies talk as if they are privy to knowledge and capabilities no one else has, and their products supposedly reflect this.

Thus again, I state incessantly, none of these companies will ever be taken seriously when people like me challenge them to prove their claims using the most regarded and objective scrutiny that has the highest confidence ratio of convincing us of actual reality: scientific testing.

They simply won't be taken serious until they fulfill this request. And anyone of their customers that defends them, or fans that defend them are inviting ridicule deservedly at the discretion of folks like me. If they want to circle jerk themselves in the privacy of their own circles, they are free to do so. But they won't go by unscathed when they spill their bile in public forums. At least not by me at least whenever I feel the need to reply and call their nonsense into question.

What's your definition of taken seriously?

AES papers? You're probably right.

Financial success? You're probably not right.

Audioquest has been peddling pseudo-science for years and has a very successful business to show for it.

For most manufacturers, profit is the ultimate goal.

 

[Tks]

You’re taking things out of context now. I said taken seriously when they make ridiculous claims.

Audioquest could make a billion dollars for all I care, their implicit and purposeful lies and ignorance is what disqualifies them from serious consideration from rational people. In the same way
Healing Crystals proponents make a killing praying on peoples ignorance (and faith healers, and mediums, and psychics, and fortune tellers, please don’t make me go on).

Taken serious means listening to someone with full care. And when they don’t want to be scrutinized, but want to continue mouthing off with ridiculous marketing, that’s when I don’t take them seriousness. I don’t know how to break this concept down further than this.

Also, why are you even bringing this whole profit motive into the conversation as if we are under the illusion it’s something else companies exist for? I don’t understand what you’re arguing for, yet again. You’re not actually making points to anything of contention. If you’re saying “profit is all that matters in the end” I don’t know what else to say but you’re arguing a whole other thing that this conversation has far passed by.

 

[March Audio]

You’re taking things out of context now. I said taken seriously when they make ridiculous claims.

Audioquest could make a billion dollars for all I care, their implicit and purposeful lies and ignorance is what disqualifies them from serious consideration from rational people. In the same way
Healing Crystals proponents make a killing praying on peoples ignorance (and faith healers, and mediums, and psychics, and fortune tellers, please don’t make me go on).

Taken serious means listening to someone with full care. And when they don’t want to be scrutinized, but want to continue mouthing off with ridiculous marketing, that’s when I don’t take them seriousness. I don’t know how to break this concept down further than this.

Also, why are you even bringing this whole profit motive into the conversation as if we are under the illusion it’s something else companies exist for? I don’t understand what you’re arguing for, yet again. You’re not actually making points to anything of contention. If you’re saying “profit is all that matters in the end” I don’t know what else to say but you’re arguing a whole other thing that this conversation has far passed by.

Im jumping in on this without reading the whole exchange, so sorry if I have missed something pertinent.

You are preaching to the converted. Technically literate people know when horse poo is being peddled. Typical audiophiles dont. They are all too willing to lap up the psuedo science and even the out right lies and BS. So yes there are companies that take advantage of this and sell accordingly. Selling something people think they want or need whether it has any real intrinsic value or is just an illusion that makes the purchaser feel good. Manufacturer claims are taken seriously by those individuals.

Testing that reveals product (non) performance will be avoided by those companies. Its simply not in their commercial interest.

 

[Tks]

You are preaching to the converted though. Technically literate people know when horse poo is being peddled. Typical audiophiles dont. They are all too willing to lap up the psuedo science and even the out right lies and BS.

They pass by on this forum at times as you know yourself. Not really preaching in so far as much as I am attempting to explain why it is I’m talking at all since that seems to be the main thing I am being questioned for. Seems I cross folks sometimes with this sort of apologist view of “who are you to tell me what I enjoy and how it should make me happy or not” sort of ordeal. They aren’t arguing anything technical anymore, they argue about getting their party rained on. And I have to repeat myself by telling them, feeding yourself with what you full well know could be lies is fine, so as long as you keep it to yourself, or find like minded places of circlejerk. But it won’t fly around me all the time without scrutiny - and no amount of “but it’s my opinion so please don’t offend my idea” sort of defenses will make sense regardless of how many times it is declared.

Now this doesn’t happen much here, or particularly all the much in audio(audiofools know where to hole themselves up), but it does happen on Reddit in many other sorts of forums. The last location I’ve had this sort of scuttle is in the Marantz measurements thread. I have some fellow attempting to explain why testing at 0dbFS isn’t proper or fair. I literally have to waste Wall of China sized text explains why a device of $100 dollars beating it in such a demanding test over its $4,000 price tag of their flagship device loses all “fairness” leeway. It’s ridiculous the hoops someone has to jump through to make a point come across. But this is what happens when you constantly entertain diversionary tactics and constantly flooding the discussion with new arguments before settling scores of previous statements.

 

[March Audio]

I can’t constsntly keep repeating myself..

It doesn’t matter the size. Look at March Audio, and ask him what his incentive was to send his gear to Amir, he’s not even “cottage size” I would imagine, yet he still found it worth his effort to send it off.

The incentive is (as I’ve said before) bragging rights, impartial independent testing to prove claims of quality/performance, and yet another boost to a marketing checklist if indeed your device is truly as good as you claim it to be.

but when manufacturers know their products are snake oil, where is the incentive?

 

[Tks]

Im jumping in on this without reading the whole exchange, so sorry if I have missed something pertinent.

Oh and I forgot to ask, if I am doing this preaching to the choir thing, maybe you can explain to me the reason for his questioning of my posts? I literally don’t understand what it is he’s trying to discover or convey? Like I don’t disagree with much of what he is saying, I simply don’t understand why he’s saying it at all.

Maybe I’m missing something.

 

[Tks]

but when manufacturers know their products are snake oil where is the incentive?

There isn’t any incentive in that case if you are actively knowing you’re trying to con people, the incentive is for non-con men/companies as I’ve said (I suppose you missed this from my prior post).

 

[March Audio]

They pass by on this forum at times as you know yourself. Not really preaching in so far as much as I am attempting to explain why it is I’m talking at all since that seems to be the main thing I am being questioned for. Seems I cross folks sometimes with this sort of apologist view of “who are you to tell me what I enjoy and how it should make me happy or not” sort of ordeal. They aren’t arguing anything technical anymore, they argue about getting their party rained on. And I have to repeat myself by telling them, feeding yourself with what you full well know could be lies is fine, so as long as you keep it to yourself, or find like minded places of circlejerk. But it won’t fly around me all the time without scrutiny - and no amount of “but it’s my opinion so please don’t offend my idea” sort of defenses will make sense regardless of how many times it is declared.

Now this doesn’t happen much here, or particularly all the much in audio(audiofools know where to hole themselves up), but it does happen on Reddit in many other sorts of forums. The last location I’ve had this sort of scuttle is in the Marantz measurements thread. I have some fellow attempting to explain why testing at 0dbFS isn’t proper or fair. I literally have to waste Wall of China sized text explains why a device of $100 dollars beating it in such a demanding test over its $4,000 price tag of their flagship device loses all “fairness” leeway. It’s ridiculous the hoops someone has to jump through to make a point come across. But this is what happens when you constantly entertain diversionary tactics and constantly flooding the discussion with new arguments before settling scores of previous statements.

Oh I agree and I have very forthright opinions which I express regarding the foo in the HiFi world. It is why this is the only forum I regularly contribute to; the lack of misguided and inaccurate audiophile subjective opinion which is frankly just white noise of no value.

Unfortunately there is a hardcore of audiophiles that will not under any circumstances entertain the facts that science provides as it contradicts their world view. Nothing you can do except avoid those sorts of discussions, you simply wont change their view.

 

[Tks]

Oh I agree and I have very forth right opinions which I express regarding the foo in the HiFi world. It is why this is the only forum I regularly contribute to; the lack of misguided and inaccurate audiophile subjective opinion which is frankly just white noise of no value.

Unfortunately there is a hardcore of audiophiles that will not under any circumstances entertain the facts that science provides as it contradicts their world view. Nothing you can do except avoid those sorts of discussions, you wont change their view.

Fully agree except the last sentence. When I have the patience, I will still engage them, if not to spark their brain into deeper reflection about their mode of thought, then at least for innocent on-lookers, so they can see how fools look like, and why they should avoid being a part of their ignorance.

I think there is always value in egaging people in civil discourse, if not to aid them, at least aid any others potentially reading or listening. Even if it requires making a mockery of the other persons lunacy-ridden thought patterns at times.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Unfortunately there is a hardcore of audiophiles that will not under any circumstances entertain the facts that science provides as it contradicts their world view. Nothing you can do except avoid those sorts of discussions, you wont change their view.

And a lot have more money than sense, they can upgrade to even more expensive BS, probably why it's easier to sell something to them that costs a lot than a little.

 

[watchnerd]

You’re taking things out of context now. I said taken seriously when they make ridiculous claims.

Audioquest could make a billion dollars for all I care, their implicit and purposeful lies and ignorance is what disqualifies them from serious consideration from rational people. In the same way
Healing Crystals proponents make a killing praying on peoples ignorance (and faith healers, and mediums, and psychics, and fortune tellers, please don’t make me go on).

Taken serious means listening to someone with full care. And when they don’t want to be scrutinized, but want to continue mouthing off with ridiculous marketing, that’s when I don’t take them seriousness. I don’t know how to break this concept down further than this.

Also, why are you even bringing this whole profit motive into the conversation as if we are under the illusion it’s something else companies exist for? I don’t understand what you’re arguing for, yet again. You’re not actually making points to anything of contention. If you’re saying “profit is all that matters in the end” I don’t know what else to say but you’re arguing a whole other thing that this conversation has far passed by.

I just don't understand what your end-goal is with these lengthy diatribes, or what outcome you're hoping to achieve.

My point is that ranting on this forum (who agree snake oil exists and is bad) is likely a waste of calories and neurons because people who join this forum typically already know this and agree. You're saying stuff we all already know.

If your goal is to convert the pseudo-science believers, the journalists, manufacturers, and buyers have a circle of complicity to keep the illusion going, largely because it's profitable to do so.

It's been this way for decades.

 

[Shadrach]

Something that seems to get completely overlooked in the audiophile circles, on both sides of the debate is signal processing isn't just confined to music.
There are a multitude of other applications that require far more stringent conditions where if errors occur possibly millions of pounds are lost or people die, yet audiophiles will insist they are some how the arbiters of effective signal processing.
It's back to the music bit again. Every time music gets mentioned peoples brains fall out, on both sides of the debate.
Sure there is money to be made in domestic audio for entertainment and one can see why it is rife with bullshit and experts.
The thing is, the same science applies to all signal processing so how come some have a problem accepting this?
It's going to be my moto; There is no fucking music at any point in the replay chain!

 

[sergeauckland]

There is no fucking music at any point in the replay chain!

So much this!!!! Why can't subjectivists accept that digital audio is just numbers, data, which may or may not represent (represent, not is) music, and analogue audio is just volts, which again may or may not represent longitudinal pressure variations in air.

Get those things right, the conversion from longitudinal vibrations in the air of the studio (or the volts generated by electronic instruments) back into the longitudinal vibrations in the air of the listening room, and the music will be fine. The accuracy of such a conversion can be measured to arbitrary levels, and to a far greater accuracy than anyone's hearing.

S.

 

[Tks]

I just don't understand what your end-goal is with these lengthy diatribes, or what outcome you're hoping to achieve.

My point is that ranting on this forum (who agree snake oil exists and is bad) is likely a waste of calories and neurons because people who join this forum typically already know this and agree. You're saying stuff we all already know.

If your goal is to convert the pseudo-science believers, the journalists, manufacturers, and buyers have a circle of complicity to keep the illusion going, largely because it's profitable to do so.

It's been this way for decades.

Nobody is ranting, I was talking with Matt Hooper. Then you came on and started asking questions already answered with my exchange with him.

 

[invaderzim]

High end audio seems to suffer from a conflict between appearance vs performance that doesn't afflict luxury cars.

Super cars have to both look amazing *and* perform amazingly....

Granted there are super cars that are high quality and the more modern ones are getting better but if you watch a lot of the shows where they actually drive them there are often issues with rattles, squeaks, wind noise, A/C that barely works, transmissions that don't work smoothly and on and on.

And a lot have more money than sense, they can upgrade to even more expensive BS, probably why it's easier to sell something to them that costs a lot than a little.

My theory is that expectation bias and perceived improvement are short lived effects. Once those fade they are no longer happy with their system. But they don't connect the dots to decide the prior improvements weren't really there they just think they are missing out on that next level of sound. Since they still think those prior improvements worked they then look to the next, more expensive, BS upgrade.

It is the "try this doorstop on your DAC, it is only $9" slippery slope that turns into $600 power cables, six figure speaker cables and more all connected to main components that really are the problem.

 

[Hypnotoad]

It is the "try this doorstop on your DAC, it is only $9" slippery slope that turns into $600 power cables, six figure speaker cables and more all connected to main components that really are the problem.

Power cables that magically transform the sound of your "high end" components. Where the power is traveling through tens of feet of standard 14 gauge copper wire from your fuse box to the wall outlet for a start, and then is magically transformed into super power once it goes through the $600.00 6-foot power cord with their many "solid core frequency conductors"? Don't forget according to the manufacturers they can make the difference between a good audio system and a great audio system, where's my check book?

 

[MattHooper]

I'm afraid that to chase every red-herring in that rant it would make the conversation even more unwweildy than it is.
You've certainly got a chip on your shoulder so I'm not going to keep spending time knocking it off.

I'm not, but nor was this the topic of contention. Stick to the points made about specifically what you're saying,

I have been doing exactly that. I know what I said; you have spun the conversation out of control.

I had written: But you can ALSO get fantastic performance from gear that is expensive and looks interesting/impressive/beautiful etc.
I gave the *specific example* of MBL 101 speakers. I find them to be really interesting, really cool looking, with sound that as I said, greatly impressed me. THAT is the claim I've been defending.

I haven't made a single claim about the performance/value of their amplifiers, DACS etc. I have only pointed out that they send their speakers, and amps and CD players, to be measured by a magazine with a VASTLY larger public profile than Amir's website has (though I love the work Amir does). To say MBL ought to instead be spending their resources shipping their often very heavy and no doubt expensive-to-ship equipment so that a small on-line website from which, even if the measurements are great, they'd get little to nothing out of it, is just...sorry...a desperate stance. It makes no economic sense and it's simply silly to make such a demand. If MBL had refused to send their stuff to Stereophile, or refused to let Stereophile make measurements for all the audio world to inspect THEN you could at least sensibly criticise that as suspicious. But to criticise MBL for not sending their stuff to Amir is a tantrum masquerading as an argument.

Further, you claimed that products like MBL are "not simply bought due to "performance", they're a pride of ownership ordeal." Which as I've pointed out, is just cheap psychoanalysis in the place of facts. To the degree that you mean to simply say people would have a pride of ownership, there's nothing wrong with that so it's moot point. To the degree you claim it's the driving factor, it doesn't fit the description of any audiophile I know (every audiophile I know is driven primarily by their love of music and audio gear). It misses the mark even in my case as my motivation was based on the fact I loved their sound and still do.

As I said, having heard a vast amount of high end and pro gear, I found the big MBL speakers had produced some of the most realistic sound I'd heard. That's not convincing to you? Cool. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm only reporting my experience and how MBL speakers have impressed me (as they have impressed an enoromous number of other people). If your stance is that you will only consider speakers that have been double-blind tested in a facility like Harman Kardon and come out on top (and why wouldn't you get the ones that always come out on top?)...that's your prerogative. You do you. Me, I like to have my options open to products beyond Revel.

I don't care how you buy your speakers. I'll buy mine by looking at measurements (when available) but ultimately by how they sound when I audition them. I'm good at getting a bead on how a speaker sounds even under less than ideal conditions (as Floyd says, we are pretty good at "hearing" through room effects to the essential sound of a speaker). I've never auditioned a speaker elsewhere and been surprised by the sound when I got it home. I HAVE however taken the occasional gamble on a speaker and bought it second hand unheard. If I didn't like it very soon after setting it up, I never grew to like them over months of living with them, which is why I don't still own them. And along the same lines, I have heard many speakers owned by friends (and also many that have passed through another pal's house who reviews audio gear) and never, over extended time, have I grown to like speakers that didn't grab me the first time I heard them. So...yeah...I do have experience justifying my claim never to have moved from apathetic about the sound of a speaker to really liking it. I'm not going to buy a speaker that, when I hear it, doesn't make me want to buy it. Even if they are Revel speakers that have been blind tested up the wazoo at HK.

If the claim was "you would likely prefer Revel speakers in the HK blind listening tests" that MAY be true, as it's probable based on their research (though not, if IIRC 100 percent certain for any individual). Nothing I have said disputes that.

But if the claim is "You ought to buy speakers that have been blind tested because you can't use your own sighted, subjective impressions to choose speakers you will like and enjoy" then that is clearly falsified by the fact I HAVE used my sighted, subjective impressions to purchase numerous speakers (that I still own) that have given me great pleasure for many decades. I'm using my own speaker auditions to get what I like, not to make scientific claims about which speakers are "better" or that would beat other speakers in blind tests. So if you are trying to make the case I'm silly or naive for relying on my sighted evaluations to choose speakers that I will find to sound wonderful in my home, your case will simply fail right out of the gate.

The actual rational people that will see the value of owning something that is scientifically proven to be state of the art, and also aesthetically wonderful, as well as from a brand with serious provenance and pedigree for such. This is where you flawed logic fails you miserably. You demean people with these lunacy-ridden machinations. To say anyone driven by scientific and sound testing methodology is devoid of emotions and ability to feel an emotional connection with their possessions.. What a condescending and disgustingly mentally gated view that is..

At this point you are hallucinating.

I can't imagine how you could have gotten that off point.

You had clearly pointed to the motivation of "pride of ownership" to cast aspersions on those who would buy something like MBL products.
I argued the movitations among most audiophiles has more to do with what they perceive to offer better sound (whether their perceptions are scientifically reliable or not).

Then YOU wrote of your own motivations:

And since pride of ownership is an aspect of these products, I'd like to be proud their products decimate others in the price range,

So one minute you are using "pride of ownership" to imply desparaging things about people who would buy MBL, but in the next moment you are saying how you would buy on specs so you can have "pride of ownership" that your gear "decimates others in their price range." And that is even in the case where you simply know your gear outperforms other gear, even if it never comes to practical use (as you admitted). So in your case you are buying specs on "pride" even though they may not contribute at all to better sound. While you were derisive of other audiophile who you thought were buying on "pride" rather than better sound. As I pointed out, most "subjectivist" audiophiles I know are buying primarily based on what they take to be giving them better sound!

It is therefore perfectly reasonable for me to have pointed out that you seem as much or more driven by "pride of ownership" than sound, and are more motivated in that respect than for instance, I was in buying MBL, or others who I have known to buy MBL speakers, who at least believe their money was going to better sound. At the very least, you are tossing stones in glass houses when you talk of "pride of ownership" in disparaging tones about the motivations of others.

And that you imagine me to be saying "anyone driven by scientific and sound testing methodology is devoid of emotions and ability to feel an emotional connection with their possessions"....is simply bizarre. There is NOTHING WRONG with anyone feeling a pride of ownership for what he buys! Whether it's you or anyone else! The point is whether that IS the primary motivation for why many audiophiles spend big money on audio gear, as you implied. A secondary point is that IF you are going to disparage those other audiophiles for buying with pride of ownership in mind, THEN you will have your hypocrisy pointed out to you, given the motivations you have expressed in your own "pride of ownership."

Clear, yet?

Anyway, at this point I don't care as you seem to be more in "someone is wrong on the internet mode" and I don't see this conversation getting any better.