Tks
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I'll try to keep it brief, it is becoming unwieldy.
And for that specific example, I have said, there is nothing you need to defend here. There's nothing you're doing wrong or right, there is nothing bad about this, nor anything I disagree with if this was the sole express intent. I see MBL speakers themselves, and I am impressed. To say they aren't something really neat would be dumb. But please, be kind enough to acknowledge that my talks with you were never about this idea or this notion.
Yes, but I have even in the first deliberation about their reluctance to send out their gear for proper review. My whole argument was about how companies of that caliber should have people that ought to expect that of them. That's all.. When you make miraculous claims as a company, you better have evidence to support it if you want rational people to take you serious is what I am saying. If your intent isn't that, then you can go do whatever you want. But when you have fans who will defend you on your behalf and make the same claims you do as a company, then those people will be pressed for providing the evidence themselves as well.
This, is at the crux of my whole deliberation with you. Nothing much else really.
That's fine, and I retorted by saying, it is irrelevant if your exmaple pool is solely comprise of "people you know". You also try to use this as reasoning to imply that there aren't any people like that that are ignorant, with more money than brains. I'm saying.. as many other will demonstrate, and many others see, that there are in-fact many people in the luxury segments of all industries that are in the description I've ascribed to them. The simple evidence of companies like AudioQuest existing to this day says better than words anything I could muster to convey on the matter. This is simply a case of "it goes without saying" if you understand my gist.
Okay, but we've been through this. There is literally nothing wring with what you say, aside from just skepticism in your ability -for whatever reason or prowess you may posses- in somehow always knowing what you might feel about a speaker from a sonic perspective from demo'ing it in the showroom vs home. You could at least be curtious and admit that there may be a bias you have for whatever reason outside of sonic character (not 100% there has to be, but MIGHT be is all I am saying). But no, you stand firm on your belief that you're able to divine your preferences based on a demo, and those preferences are due to the sonic characters and nothing else. All I am saying is, I don't believe anyone is capable of that. It's my belief for the same reason it takes time for folks to acclimate to any new sound signature of something. It's not to imply you're a liar, or ignorant or anything. I'm simply saying I don't believe we as people in general are incapable of doing what you're doing and saying we do it because we know 100% the sonic quality on first impressions if it will be good enough.
I don't understand why this is not reaching you. This is a fully plausible thing to believe, as evidence to the contrary do not exist, but contrary to that, people always are saying how they have had products they didn't enjoy at first, but grew on them.
See the thing is, I've never made claims even remotely to that. But as you say, that MAY be true. So it was never a topic of contention. And also I agree, (thought I don't recall, but you do state now) you have said nothing that disputes that, and I am glad because I agree with that statement if you hold that belief, as it is as sensible as any.
And just like the other thing you said, I never claimed this. It can be argued if you value sonic quality above all else, this can be one of the more sensible things to do, but no one is saying you have to do this to enjoy something. Heck I'll even say this could completely backfire, as it may sound good at first, and then you eventually realize you don't like it after you acclimate, or bring it home (I've had this happen to me a few times). So again, I am not claiming this, but I don't disagree in saying this can be a valid thing to undertake, but it can also backfire as well. Nothing really to agree or seriously disagree with here. It's a completely neutral thing you can undertake of your own volition and rest easy knowing you're not making any ridiculously illogical moves.
Okay, and you're simply just making declaratory statements. You're not actually addressing where I am incorrect with respect to addressing the quote. I won't repeat myself in this instance, so if you can go take what you said prior, and tell me where my reply that you quoted now doesn't fit. Then I will reply.
The second portion of this what I quote makes more sense (the point about you arguing the motivations). I somewhat agree, but this was taken to some extreme when you address me. Let me elaborate, as this is a bit obtuse.
Audiophiles at those price brackets are already under the preconceived notion that nothing actually sounds bad (to them, that's impossible to rationalize at that price range, so they're under the impression they are chasing for the last 1%). So they are all technically as you say "seeking best sound quality", no one is actually debating this. But they know they're not purely paying for performance here, if they did, they would demand the objective scientific testing to be actually convinced, so they also look at the vanity/exclusivity/prestige of owning something that in their mind could be a halo product only they (and perhaps a handful other few) could ever attain. This doesn't have to happen actively conciously. The fact these are the same people multi-plated platinum interconnects and idiocy of that nature for such prices is evidence of the few things I've just mentioned.
I'm not saying every single living person on this planet that buys MBL is a vanity chasing audiophile-wanna-be, but there is a psychological justification they give themselves for investing so heavy into this hobby, and sometimes (many times at those price brackets) that justifaction is manifast in a form outside of pure performance metrics. If it wasn't then performance metrics would be everywhere and that wouldn't be a thing they ever need to think about. Leave them in the dark about that, and you have sales-men that can work their profit generating magic with VIP demo's to sell the product home.
Your last sentence here invalidates the whole begining of the paragraph. Specifications when tested independently and verified scientifically DO contribute to "better sound" (also an ambiguous term, because to some people, hyper distorting tube amps are what "sound great" to them). But to not drag this conversation into anymore semantic delibertaions, lets both agree "better sound" means audibly transparent. If you will not agree to this definition of "better sound" I have nothing more to say after your next reply where you confirm this, or deny it.
One thing I forgot to ask in the last thing I quoted, but I will ask now. What is this weird image you're trying to paint as if having pride in owning a product that performs objectively better are -by what you seem to be implying- as some sorts of contradictory ideas? Or perhaps I'm simply not understanding your point, and for that I will apologize in advance if that is the case.
This has no actual weight or relevancy depending on what your point is. Again, it's confusing because of the prior two quotes because I'm not 100% sure on what you're implying, buuuuut... As I claimed before, there's nothing wrong with having pride of ownership, or pride of "objectively better things". Like why would I not feel pride, or proud of myself after a hunt for a new device that has been confirmed to be a worthy offering for the sake of sonic quality. This is a far cry from folks feeling a pride of ownership because they're buying something they THINK is superlative performance, AND because knowing they're superior because they're buying something others cant, or just simply THRILLED to have a product that is also part-jewelry. Being proud of certain things that are blindspots (like performance you think is top tier, but that isn't verified), is vastly different than being proud of something you KNOW is high performing as verified by science.
See again, not really sure of what point you're making here. As if to say "oh you have actually more pride because now you're convinced your product is better than others, and you laugh at MBL buyers because any pride they have is senseless because they could possibly be fooling themselves based on their subjective limitations of evaluating the product". It's not a pissing contest, nor does it matter, especially when sonic quality is concerned, pride of the individual doesn't matter. Even if I was the most high-horsed person on the planet, it doesn't take way your level of happiness with your gear, nor do you take mine away when you say for instance "yeah but you know there's stuff out there that sounds better, TRUST me, I have golden ears, you should do listening tests more". Again, I'm not saying that's what either of us are doing. You even said yourself you will look at measurements if they're there, and if not, then you move on to the next best thing. I'm that way too. But the sorts of people I am talking about in my examples, aren't you as the example. I think this is one of the core miscommunications occurring here.
I don't imagine, it was the only logical deduction I could draw from the statements. If I made the mistake (of which this I doubt I am making the mistake, unlike the other portions I was more shaky in my full understanding of what you're implying) then I am sorry.
As for the refocus you're giving (and I appreciate) in concretely saying what the topic of contention is (the whole primary motivation if big money spenders are doing it for pride of ownership), that I can reiterate. I never said it was only pride of ownership, nor would I take their word on it, even if they told me, because in the same way you can't choose your belief's you also can't choose you subconcious reasoning. Also as I imply with the last sentence, its also exclusivity (of owning something that otherwise can be had anywhere else, and not because to prove people beneath you are less, but to literally prove to yourself subconsciously various things like justification for those amounts spent and such others. etc...). It's also the BELIEF what you hear is accurate portrayal of performance on the objective level (so, self grandiosing delusions).
Again, I will repeat myself, I am not saying EVERY single person buying gear that could finance townhouses in Manhattan has these traits. But I am willing to wager quite a bit, and I am confident in logically deducing that AT LEAST folks that exhibit these issues, tend to reveal themselves when they supplement their purchases with idiocy like Audioquest cables and such; are usually the sort of people that will fit into some of those prior categorizations I mentioned. Again, more power to them, but I won't let their beliefs proliferate unchallenged when they start talking about how purchase decisions ought be made and that because of their investiture (by virtue of such) their word holds more credence.
Some things are more clear, but I personally see the things that have been clarified topics that weren't pressed or elaborated on fully from the start, something I've attempted to do at all stages, but you've only really started doing with this post quite sufficiently compared to the prior I would say.
As for your final lines, I have nothing to say to this aside from I think this conversation was great. I feel much better, and I have a far higher opinion of you AND your statements than before. I think our major disagreements derive from instances of great communication breakdowns. I'll admit that the conversation has blown up in size and density more than I had hoped it would, so keeping ideas concise is tough. And I think its getting to a point of insanely diminishing returns, because you and I operate on a similar path of action with respect to making decisions. I'm just saying there is a pattern that high-end audio segment exhibits that is simply negative, and could do with much more improvement (and these posts were to highlight some of the SORT of folks and sorts of companies that continue the negative aspects we ascribe to them, and they - to themselves with their actions).
And for that specific example, I have said, there is nothing you need to defend here. There's nothing you're doing wrong or right, there is nothing bad about this, nor anything I disagree with if this was the sole express intent. I see MBL speakers themselves, and I am impressed. To say they aren't something really neat would be dumb. But please, be kind enough to acknowledge that my talks with you were never about this idea or this notion.
Yes, but I have even in the first deliberation about their reluctance to send out their gear for proper review. My whole argument was about how companies of that caliber should have people that ought to expect that of them. That's all.. When you make miraculous claims as a company, you better have evidence to support it if you want rational people to take you serious is what I am saying. If your intent isn't that, then you can go do whatever you want. But when you have fans who will defend you on your behalf and make the same claims you do as a company, then those people will be pressed for providing the evidence themselves as well.
This, is at the crux of my whole deliberation with you. Nothing much else really.
That's fine, and I retorted by saying, it is irrelevant if your exmaple pool is solely comprise of "people you know". You also try to use this as reasoning to imply that there aren't any people like that that are ignorant, with more money than brains. I'm saying.. as many other will demonstrate, and many others see, that there are in-fact many people in the luxury segments of all industries that are in the description I've ascribed to them. The simple evidence of companies like AudioQuest existing to this day says better than words anything I could muster to convey on the matter. This is simply a case of "it goes without saying" if you understand my gist.
Okay, but we've been through this. There is literally nothing wring with what you say, aside from just skepticism in your ability -for whatever reason or prowess you may posses- in somehow always knowing what you might feel about a speaker from a sonic perspective from demo'ing it in the showroom vs home. You could at least be curtious and admit that there may be a bias you have for whatever reason outside of sonic character (not 100% there has to be, but MIGHT be is all I am saying). But no, you stand firm on your belief that you're able to divine your preferences based on a demo, and those preferences are due to the sonic characters and nothing else. All I am saying is, I don't believe anyone is capable of that. It's my belief for the same reason it takes time for folks to acclimate to any new sound signature of something. It's not to imply you're a liar, or ignorant or anything. I'm simply saying I don't believe we as people in general are incapable of doing what you're doing and saying we do it because we know 100% the sonic quality on first impressions if it will be good enough.
I don't understand why this is not reaching you. This is a fully plausible thing to believe, as evidence to the contrary do not exist, but contrary to that, people always are saying how they have had products they didn't enjoy at first, but grew on them.
See the thing is, I've never made claims even remotely to that. But as you say, that MAY be true. So it was never a topic of contention. And also I agree, (thought I don't recall, but you do state now) you have said nothing that disputes that, and I am glad because I agree with that statement if you hold that belief, as it is as sensible as any.
And just like the other thing you said, I never claimed this. It can be argued if you value sonic quality above all else, this can be one of the more sensible things to do, but no one is saying you have to do this to enjoy something. Heck I'll even say this could completely backfire, as it may sound good at first, and then you eventually realize you don't like it after you acclimate, or bring it home (I've had this happen to me a few times). So again, I am not claiming this, but I don't disagree in saying this can be a valid thing to undertake, but it can also backfire as well. Nothing really to agree or seriously disagree with here. It's a completely neutral thing you can undertake of your own volition and rest easy knowing you're not making any ridiculously illogical moves.
Okay, and you're simply just making declaratory statements. You're not actually addressing where I am incorrect with respect to addressing the quote. I won't repeat myself in this instance, so if you can go take what you said prior, and tell me where my reply that you quoted now doesn't fit. Then I will reply.
The second portion of this what I quote makes more sense (the point about you arguing the motivations). I somewhat agree, but this was taken to some extreme when you address me. Let me elaborate, as this is a bit obtuse.
Audiophiles at those price brackets are already under the preconceived notion that nothing actually sounds bad (to them, that's impossible to rationalize at that price range, so they're under the impression they are chasing for the last 1%). So they are all technically as you say "seeking best sound quality", no one is actually debating this. But they know they're not purely paying for performance here, if they did, they would demand the objective scientific testing to be actually convinced, so they also look at the vanity/exclusivity/prestige of owning something that in their mind could be a halo product only they (and perhaps a handful other few) could ever attain. This doesn't have to happen actively conciously. The fact these are the same people multi-plated platinum interconnects and idiocy of that nature for such prices is evidence of the few things I've just mentioned.
I'm not saying every single living person on this planet that buys MBL is a vanity chasing audiophile-wanna-be, but there is a psychological justification they give themselves for investing so heavy into this hobby, and sometimes (many times at those price brackets) that justifaction is manifast in a form outside of pure performance metrics. If it wasn't then performance metrics would be everywhere and that wouldn't be a thing they ever need to think about. Leave them in the dark about that, and you have sales-men that can work their profit generating magic with VIP demo's to sell the product home.
Your last sentence here invalidates the whole begining of the paragraph. Specifications when tested independently and verified scientifically DO contribute to "better sound" (also an ambiguous term, because to some people, hyper distorting tube amps are what "sound great" to them). But to not drag this conversation into anymore semantic delibertaions, lets both agree "better sound" means audibly transparent. If you will not agree to this definition of "better sound" I have nothing more to say after your next reply where you confirm this, or deny it.
One thing I forgot to ask in the last thing I quoted, but I will ask now. What is this weird image you're trying to paint as if having pride in owning a product that performs objectively better are -by what you seem to be implying- as some sorts of contradictory ideas? Or perhaps I'm simply not understanding your point, and for that I will apologize in advance if that is the case.
This has no actual weight or relevancy depending on what your point is. Again, it's confusing because of the prior two quotes because I'm not 100% sure on what you're implying, buuuuut... As I claimed before, there's nothing wrong with having pride of ownership, or pride of "objectively better things". Like why would I not feel pride, or proud of myself after a hunt for a new device that has been confirmed to be a worthy offering for the sake of sonic quality. This is a far cry from folks feeling a pride of ownership because they're buying something they THINK is superlative performance, AND because knowing they're superior because they're buying something others cant, or just simply THRILLED to have a product that is also part-jewelry. Being proud of certain things that are blindspots (like performance you think is top tier, but that isn't verified), is vastly different than being proud of something you KNOW is high performing as verified by science.
See again, not really sure of what point you're making here. As if to say "oh you have actually more pride because now you're convinced your product is better than others, and you laugh at MBL buyers because any pride they have is senseless because they could possibly be fooling themselves based on their subjective limitations of evaluating the product". It's not a pissing contest, nor does it matter, especially when sonic quality is concerned, pride of the individual doesn't matter. Even if I was the most high-horsed person on the planet, it doesn't take way your level of happiness with your gear, nor do you take mine away when you say for instance "yeah but you know there's stuff out there that sounds better, TRUST me, I have golden ears, you should do listening tests more". Again, I'm not saying that's what either of us are doing. You even said yourself you will look at measurements if they're there, and if not, then you move on to the next best thing. I'm that way too. But the sorts of people I am talking about in my examples, aren't you as the example. I think this is one of the core miscommunications occurring here.
I don't imagine, it was the only logical deduction I could draw from the statements. If I made the mistake (of which this I doubt I am making the mistake, unlike the other portions I was more shaky in my full understanding of what you're implying) then I am sorry.
As for the refocus you're giving (and I appreciate) in concretely saying what the topic of contention is (the whole primary motivation if big money spenders are doing it for pride of ownership), that I can reiterate. I never said it was only pride of ownership, nor would I take their word on it, even if they told me, because in the same way you can't choose your belief's you also can't choose you subconcious reasoning. Also as I imply with the last sentence, its also exclusivity (of owning something that otherwise can be had anywhere else, and not because to prove people beneath you are less, but to literally prove to yourself subconsciously various things like justification for those amounts spent and such others. etc...). It's also the BELIEF what you hear is accurate portrayal of performance on the objective level (so, self grandiosing delusions).
Again, I will repeat myself, I am not saying EVERY single person buying gear that could finance townhouses in Manhattan has these traits. But I am willing to wager quite a bit, and I am confident in logically deducing that AT LEAST folks that exhibit these issues, tend to reveal themselves when they supplement their purchases with idiocy like Audioquest cables and such; are usually the sort of people that will fit into some of those prior categorizations I mentioned. Again, more power to them, but I won't let their beliefs proliferate unchallenged when they start talking about how purchase decisions ought be made and that because of their investiture (by virtue of such) their word holds more credence.
Some things are more clear, but I personally see the things that have been clarified topics that weren't pressed or elaborated on fully from the start, something I've attempted to do at all stages, but you've only really started doing with this post quite sufficiently compared to the prior I would say.
As for your final lines, I have nothing to say to this aside from I think this conversation was great. I feel much better, and I have a far higher opinion of you AND your statements than before. I think our major disagreements derive from instances of great communication breakdowns. I'll admit that the conversation has blown up in size and density more than I had hoped it would, so keeping ideas concise is tough. And I think its getting to a point of insanely diminishing returns, because you and I operate on a similar path of action with respect to making decisions. I'm just saying there is a pattern that high-end audio segment exhibits that is simply negative, and could do with much more improvement (and these posts were to highlight some of the SORT of folks and sorts of companies that continue the negative aspects we ascribe to them, and they - to themselves with their actions).
