Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[levimax]

Hence when threads are raised in the General Discussion forum about the pros and cons of vinyl, such as this one, it is assumed that statements of fact are welcome, pro and con. But people keep coming into it with the attitude that criticisms are unwelcome ie it’s a Vinyl Love thread, and make sarcastic and defensive comments such as yours above. On more than one occasion the mods have had to step in and lay down the law that criticisms of vinyl are allowed.

From what I have seen no one care if you criticize vinyl and it's performance. The issue is when you start assigning unflattering motives (dumb, deaf, biased, foolish, hipster, etc.) for why people, despite the expense and inconvenience and performance continue to listen to vinyl. You really have no way of knowing what another person's motives are and people don't like being called names. If you stick to the facts I think things would calm down.... but may become boring

 

[Axo1989]

See my post immediately above.

A bit like vinyl then.

What’s a “vinyl member”? I own vinyl, and I comment on it positively and negatively and neutrally, as warranted. Do I have to cut out the negative and the neutral to gain ‘vinyl member’ status?

As long as your turntable isn’t banished to another room, you’re good.

I am not aware of any such campaign to run down vinyl in the Turntables, Phono Amplifier, Cartridges Review forum. Go there if you want to feel the love and only the love. In fact, there is a specific thread there for discussing vinyl without allowing any criticisms. Apparently some people who get greatest listening pleasure from vinyl feel personally judged when their tool is described as imperfect, so the site has a safe place for such gentle creatures. There are many other sites that are even safer spaces because bans are promptly handed out when true but unfavourable statements are posted about vinyl. This site, in general, is not like that, being focused on truth including criticisms of toys.

Reproduction from both vinyl and digital sources is imperfect. We can identify more imperfections and greater magnitudes of same wrt vinyl. I don’t possess any of the latter but in my astonishingly limited experience listening to some (blind) digital vs vinyl needle drops I’ve identified subtly different sonics that I can imagine some preferring as euphonic. Even if those people aren’t me. Among all the other reasons.

As @levimax just said, sometimes the pejoratives and aspersions are laid on a bit too thick.

 

[Anton D]

See my post immediately above.

A bit like vinyl then.

What’s a “vinyl member”? I own vinyl, and I comment on it positively and negatively and neutrally, as warranted. Do I have to cut out the negative and the neutral to gain ‘vinyl member’ status?

I am not aware of any such campaign to run down vinyl in the Turntables, Phono Amplifier, Cartridges Review forum. Go there if you want to feel the love and only the love. In fact, there is a specific thread there for discussing vinyl without allowing any criticisms. Apparently some people who get greatest listening pleasure from vinyl feel personally judged when their tool is described as imperfect, so the site has a safe place for such gentle creatures. There are many other sites that are even safer spaces because bans are promptly handed out when true but unfavourable statements are posted about vinyl. This site, in general, is not like that, being focused on truth including criticisms of toys.

Hence when threads are raised in the General Discussion forum about the pros and cons of vinyl, such as this one, it is assumed that statements of fact are welcome, pro and con. But people keep coming into it with the attitude that criticisms are unwelcome ie it’s a Vinyl Love thread, and make sarcastic and defensive comments such as yours above. On more than one occasion the mods have had to step in and lay down the law that criticisms of vinyl are allowed.

Hello, Newman.

Do you still use your DSP-1?

I do not, newer things have come along....yes, all toys. (With greatest apologies, the entire hobby is toys, to me. I love them, but all of this hobby is a pleasure quest!) Would you imply people who have moved on from a DSP-1 just simply 'didn't understand it?' Should people still be required to use it if they owned one? I think it was a thrilling interactive device, but, yes, a toy.

I do admit "Jazz Club"and tweaked "Warehouse Loft" were pretty fun. What were your favorite settings, Newman?

(It also seemed to have a bit of high frequency noise. Not a deal killer, but it could be noted.)

Nice to see you own and play vinyl, I guess we all 'settle' now and then!

 

[Newman]

From what I have seen no one care if you criticize vinyl and it's performance. The issue is when you start assigning unflattering motives (dumb, deaf, biased, foolish, hipster, etc.) for why people, despite the expense and inconvenience and performance continue to listen to vinyl. You really have no way of knowing what another person's motives are and people don't like being called names. If you stick to the facts I think things would calm down.... but may become boring

Oh well, that let’s me off the hook entirely except maybe hipster, which I had no idea was a perjorative…I thought it was a legitimate social group?

I don’t feel any criticism towards people fitting that description…do you? What’s the non-perjorative noun for hipster, then?

 

[levimax]

Oh well, that let’s me off the hook entirely except maybe hipster, which I had no idea was a perjorative…I thought it was a legitimate social group?

View attachment 316211
I don’t feel any criticism towards people fitting that description…do you? What’s the non-perjorative noun for hipster, then?

In the contex of listening to vinyl hipster has a negative connotation for me, can't see inside others minds to know how they take it. To be nice I left the "low standards" off the list

 

[MattHooper]

In the contex of listening to vinyl hipster has a negative connotation for me, can't see inside others minds to know how they take it. To be nice I left the "low standards" off the list

I never seen "hipster" used as anything but derogatory. If you read articles on the vinyl revival, with the inevitable comment sections, you will see a lot of cynical comments and the word "hipster" is used liberally in comments expressing that cynicism. This should be obvious when you consider virtually no one calls themselves a "hipster." As wikipedia notes:

Members of the subculture typically do not self-identify as hipsters,[1] and the word hipster is often used as a pejorative for someone who is pretentious or overly concerned with appearing trendy.

I certainly wouldn't go hiding under my desk weeping if someone referred to me as a hipster; but it would denote the user as making a dig - it's an obvious pejorative. Nobody seems to like "hipsters."

 

[Robin L]

I never seen "hipster" used as anything but derogatory.

That's 'cause you're not old enough:

 

[JP]

From what I have seen no one care if you criticize vinyl and it's performance. The issue is when you start assigning unflattering motives (dumb, deaf, biased, foolish, hipster, etc.) for why people, despite the expense and inconvenience and performance continue to listen to vinyl. You really have no way of knowing what another person's motives are and people don't like being called names. If you stick to the facts I think things would calm down.... but may become boring

I've never seen anyone sprout self-awareness overnight. Pity.

 

[Axo1989]

I never seen "hipster" used as anything but derogatory. If you read articles on the vinyl revival, with the inevitable comment sections, you will see a lot of cynical comments and the word "hipster" is used liberally in comments expressing that cynicism. This should be obvious when you consider virtually no one calls themselves a "hipster." As wikipedia notes:

Members of the subculture typically do not self-identify as hipsters,[1] and the word hipster is often used as a pejorative for someone who is pretentious or overly concerned with appearing trendy.

I certainly wouldn't go hiding under my desk weeping if someone referred to me as a hipster; but it would denote the user as making a dig - it's an obvious pejorative. Nobody seems to like "hipsters."

It's certainly employed as a pejorative these days, not unlike woke.

But hipsters are worth their weight in gold I reckon, without them Sydney would have no good third wave coffee shops. Which I would add to Albert Schweitzer's very short list of refuges from the ills of life.

 

[mppix]

Putting all the above together, I just don’t think we can keep calling LP microgroove high fidelity in 2023.

The term HiFi is stuck with equipment from the mid 60s to mid 80s. Only old people listen to their HiFi.
Maybe we can take a page from the display folks: how about Ultra-High-Fidelity with the acronyms Ultra HiFi, or alternatively UlFi?
.. or a page from the car folks: perhaps Super-Fidelity, i.e. SupFi, could also work? We can then leave the Hyper-Fidelity, i.e. Hy(pe)Fi, to the hires folks.

It would be great to have a marketing term and attract people to the new stuff. If we make "modern hifi" actually successful, people don't need to go back to "high quality" vinyl when they are dissatisfied with youtube music quality.

It also has the added advantage that we don't need to scratch off the HiFi writing on those old turntables. They all had them back then.

Over a year ago I outlined and summarised Toole’s explanation of how and why we have been conditioned to be pretty happy with pretty little.

True and it is working. J. Olive also participated in a video that states that music quality is at a historic low point now.

 

[Newman]

I never seen "hipster" used as anything but derogatory. If you read articles on the vinyl revival, with the inevitable comment sections, you will see a lot of cynical comments and the word "hipster" is used liberally in comments expressing that cynicism. This should be obvious when you consider virtually no one calls themselves a "hipster." As wikipedia notes: “Members of the subculture typically do not self-identify as hipsters,[1] and the word hipster is often used as a pejorative for someone who is pretentious or overly concerned with appearing trendy.”
I certainly wouldn't go hiding under my desk weeping if someone referred to me as a hipster; but it would denote the user as making a dig - it's an obvious pejorative. Nobody seems to like "hipsters."

Well you have now: mine.

And per the Oxford Dictionary, as I quoted.

The term originated in the 1930s in reference to “a fashionable person in the jazz world”.

I guess some people could even start using, and taking, the word “fashionable” in a derogatory way. Sad.

But still, taking offence without checking the intent of the user is often done purposefully.

Now that we have established that it doesn’t need to be derogatory, and that it hasn’t always been used that way in this thread, there is no more justification for purposefully taking offence. Check first.

 

[tmtomh]

While most of our host's OP items introducing that thread relate to subjectivist criticisms, it also provides for arguments by people who want more and/or different measurements (item 11). We wouldn't want to give anyone the wrong impression. Objectivist sidetracks are accepted there too.

Yes, 1 out of 12. Let's indeed not give anyone the wrong impression.

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.

11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.

12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.

 

[mppix]

I must say I’m not completely sure why the discussion has shifted towards modern audio production trends vs. how things where done in the past. How things are done in today's audio production will in most cases affect the vinyl release the same way as the same brick-wall limited master is often used for all the releases.

and that is why!

 

[Robin L]

“a fashionable person in the jazz world”.

. . . which I guess helps to explain all those Blue Note LP "audiophile" reissues, in spite of their easily demonstrated compromised fidelity. I no longer have any LPs but I still have "audiophile" SACDs, including "Monk's Music", "Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane" "Brilliant Corners" (Thelonious Monk), "The Quintet" aka "Jazz at Massey Hall" (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell, Max Roach, Charlie Mingus and certifiably lo-fi), "Straight No Chaser" (Thelonious Monk) and that audiophile standard Getz/Gilberto, where you can hear the noise on Austrud Gilberto's Schoeps 221b creep up as "the Girl From Ipanema" kicks in. Even have Walter Gieseking's murky sounding 1950's Debussy on SACD. I doubt that these titles gain any additional audio polish on account of being DSD productions, though it's probable the mastering engineers working on these titles were all on their very best behavior.

 

[Axo1989]

Yes, 1 out of 12. Let's indeed not give anyone the wrong impression.

Now, now, don't go demonstrating number 12 on everyone. And, ironically, dismiss the inconvenient data point. Those 11 are just the same point in different words, right?

 

[tmtomh]

Now, now, don't go demonstrating number 12 on everyone. And, ironically, ignore the inconvenient data point.

That would be condescending if it were accurate or clever.

If you want to continue our previous disagreement about language in another form, let's take it to PMs and spare everyone else here.

Or not, and instead wait for a moderator to thread-ban one or both of us. Your choice.

 

[MattHooper]

Newman, if you are truly confused as to why so many see your posts as so negative about vinyl and vinyl enthusiasts....I'll try to help explain.

Well you have now: mine.

And per the Oxford Dictionary, as I quoted.

The term originated in the 1930s in reference to “a fashionable person in the jazz world”.

So you are going back to the 30's to justify your use of the term, rather than how it's seen now? You know terms take on new meanings and connotations over time?
You haven't noticed that "hipster" is used these days almost universally as a derogatory term?

If you want to infer the sense in which someone is using a word, look at context. Your use of the term "hipster" is within a context of your making countless posts in this and other threads filled with almost entirely negative comments about vinyl records (and implicit and explicit castigation of vinyl enthusiasts).

Even that very link in which you used "hipster" is situated in what anyone can see is a negative, disparaging view of the vinyl revival (which...I know....you feel is Telling The Truth That People Need To Hear).

What you wrote:

"Thought I would celebrate Page 60 with the observation that, I hope, this thread confirms for the reader that the general answer to the thread topic is that the Vinyl Renaissance, and it truly is a renaissance, is largely driven by hipster culture, bolstered by anti-technology backlash including love of ritual and old things, reinforced with inexcusable myth-making about 'sounding better' from the media, and justified by the largely-acceptable sound quality when all the stars align and flaws are overlooked and listener standards are not at the highest level, especially considering the quantum leap in perceptual sound quality from MCH that has left vinyl sound in the dust. And all of which, compounded by the insane price per song for new vinyl, which has ironically created in some minds a Veblen Good attitude of 'it-must-be-best-because-it-costs-most', means this renaissance is probably here to stay, and the battle for factualists will be to continually point out that cognitive bias is causing fans to misrepresent 'sounds-better-to-me' as being something in the sound waves."

Everything bolded there comes off as negative, which provides quite a lot of context for your attitude toward the new vinyl enthusiasts you refer to as "hipsters." (And I don't think you owe anyone a positive view of the vinyl revival, if that is not how you feel about it!!)

Again...if you want to call anyone a hipster, that's your prerogative of course. And...ok....somehow nestled within all the negativity above, you used "hipster" affectionately. But I don't think you should be confused when people infer otherwise, given the general negative tenor of your comments regarding vinyl with constant swipes at vinyl enthusiasts. (Especially if they dare suggest they enjoy the sound quality...)

 

[pablolie]

264 pages into this, it's pretty clear the twain shall never meet. I have friends that love vinyl -whether it's the sounds or ritual- and I have never ever wasted a second trying to argue they are wrong. The key is enjoying the music, the method is just a vehicle to it.

Arguing vinyl is technically superior is a losing game, we know the parameters of different mediums. And it is no different from digital stalwarts claiming that 24/192 is better than Redbook, in my opinion.

I gave up vinyl over 20 years ago and shall never go back, but it's not because I didn't enjoy the music while I still had a turn table. It was the vulnerability and inconvenience of the medium. I was someone that would constantly record vinyl to compact cassette to create my own mixes (which were acclaimed among my friends, begging me to record a cassette for them), but oh heavens, the time spent on that. While very zen because you had to be there real time for every song you recorded, it was also time consuming.

Sound quality by itself was not the driving factor for my totally turning my back on vinyl. It's just that I prefer the ritual of fast access to my favorite music. The fact I can create awesome playlists in far less time, and keep mixing and optimizing them for different moods.

But if someone else wants to do the work for me and play great music on vinyl and keep their records intact, hey, more power to them.

 

[Axo1989]

That would be condescending if it were accurate or clever.

If you want to continue our previous disagreement about language in another form, let's take it to PMs and spare everyone else here.

Or not, and instead wait for a moderator to thread-ban one or both of us. Your choice.

No, it's obvious both objectivist and subjectivist (alphabetical order) critiques of ASR review measurements are accepted in that thread. There isn't anything more to argue about, here or via PM. I'm going to argue about high fidelity in a bit (haven't finished writing that one) so take me up on that maybe.

 

[tmtomh]

No, it's obvious both objectivist and subjectivist (alphabetical order) critiques of ASR review measurements are accepted in that thread. There isn't anything more to argue about, here or via PM. I'm going to argue about high fidelity in a bit (haven't finished writing that one) so take me up on that maybe.

That's not what my prior comment was responding to. You claimed I was engaging in cultish behavior. If you're interested in being reasonable and civil, you can acknowledge that you were out of line. If you don't wish to, that's fine, but in that case you'll get as you give, until the mods step in. Do as you wish.