The state of the art class D AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S600NC and AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S400ET sound different, though there is a caveat here.

[antcollinet]

So there's no doubt, I'm not saying there's a difference between all these amps, I'm saying there's a difference between my amps. I understand some people may be sceptical. I don't know enough about the graphs in Amir's reviews but I know that the graphs are different, he says people can theretically hear down to -115dB - 120dB, and as neither of these amps has that level of SINAD (if I've got that right) at all across the whole frequency range I would say it's realistically possible people would hear a difference, and I did.

I believe you. I am also certain you are hearing an audible difference. As long as you are not level matching this is hardly a surprise. What is it? Do you just not believe the many people who are telling you this?

As I am almost** equally certain they will sound identical (even to you) if you level match and test blind.

**none of us can be 100% certain of this until you try it. That is fine - we don't expect you to. But if you are not going to, then you need to stop trying to convince anyone that the amps are audibly different.

 

[Chrispy]

Even if you hear a difference, which is most likely just due your poor comparison methodology (or something is broken), why post about it, and why here? After many years of various amps/setups, I can't think of anything less useful than trying to determine audible differences in good amps.....but does remind me of this

 

[SIY]

You're the first person here. How do you use both amps? Are they in the same system? How did you compare them?

They've been swapped back and forth between two systems (dynamic and ESL) and between upper and lower part of my bi-amped dynamic system. They are both superb products offering lots of power and perfect transparency. I also have the Nilais and Axign, and same, they work perfectly for an audibility standpoint.

 

[ommadusk]

I believe you. I am also certain you are hearing an audible difference. As long as you are not level matching this is hardly a surprise. What is it? Do you just not believe the many people who are telling you this?

As I am almost** equally certain they will sound identical (even to you) if you level match and test blind.

**none of us can be 100% certain of this until you try it. That is fine - we don't expect you to. But if you are not going to, then you need to stop trying to convince anyone that the amps are audibly different.

I'm not trying to convince anyone...

Even if you hear a difference, which is most likely just due your poor comparison methodology (or something is broken), why post about it, and why here? After many years of various amps/setups, I can't think of anything less useful than trying to determine audible differences in good amps.....but does remind me of thisView attachment 307511

I'm actually telling everyone and it's only to help someone if they're thinking about these two amps. I've noticed how many people say there isn't a difference and how many people say they're not certain there isn't a difference but I'm wrong. I wonder how many of these people have said both things. Are you saying Apollon and Audiophonics are wrong? They've both said there is a difference. Buckeye has said there probably, and I emphasise probably, isn't an audible difference. I don't want to cause distress here.

P.S. Buckeye might have compared the Nilai to one of these amps and maybe not these two.

 

[ommadusk]

They've been swapped back and forth between two systems (dynamic and ESL) and between upper and lower part of my bi-amped dynamic system. They are both superb products offering lots of power and perfect transparency. I also have the Nilais and Axign, and same, they work perfectly for an audibility standpoint.

Have you listened to them in isolation and do you have one or two channels? What is the source up the chain?

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not trying to convince anyone...

I'm actually telling everyone and it's only to help someone if they're thinking about these two amps.

Hmmm - so which is it?

And bear in mind - in the second case you are not helping people, you are misleading them with inadequate testing processes.

 

[ommadusk]

Hmmm - so which is it?

And bear in mind - in the second case you are not helping people, you are misleading them with inadequate testing processes.

I'm not contradicting myself. I want to aid them in their decision I'm not telling them what to think. That's quite rude. Quote something I've said that is misleading. I'll wait.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not contradicting myself. I want to aid them in their decision I'm not telling them what to think. That's quite rude. Quote something I've said that is misleading.

That the amps are audibly different. You are misleading others that they will experience the same differences you are. they will not.

Because the differences you are hearing and describing are based on a faulty test method. But you know that, you must have been told at least 10 times now by various people. You are simply choosing to ignore it.

So I'm not going to waste any further attention on your nonsense.

 

[ommadusk]

That the amps are audibly different. You are misleading others that they will experience the same differences you are. they will not.

Because the differences you are hearing and describing are based on a faulty test method. But you know that, you must have been told at least 10 times now by various people. You are simply choosing to ignore it.

So I'm not going to waste any further attention§ on your nonsense.

Who's contradicting themselves? You've told me they are audibly different or can't you be bothered to finish the sentence. Are you saying that nothing we experience is worth sharing? That's a very radical point of view. It doesn't bode well for society. I've never said they will experience the same differences.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm not trying to convince anyone...

I'm actually telling everyone and it's only to help someone if they're thinking about these two amps. I've noticed how many people say there isn't a difference and how many people say they're not certain there isn't a difference but I'm wrong. I wonder how many of these people have said both things. Are you saying Apollon and Audiophonics are wrong? They've both said there is a difference. Buckeye has said there probably, and I emphasise probably, isn't an audible difference. I don't want to cause distress here.

P.S. Buckeye might have compared the Nilai to one of these amps and maybe not these two.

Where does Apollon and Audiophonics describe such differences? How are you "helping" anyone with your anecdotal story?

 

[ommadusk]

Where does Apollon and Audiophonics describe such differences? How are you "helping" anyone with your anecdotal story?

Actually I was wrong about Apollon. They were comparing OP Amps. Audiophonics said it to someone else. The link's in the first post. I'm sorry for my anecdote, I probably didn't help anyone. It was not meant to cause offence or cause harm. I'm being sarcastic.

 

[Chrispy]

Actually I was wrong about Apollon. They were comparing OP Amps. Audiophonics said it someone else. The link's in the first post. I'm sorry for my anecdote, I probably didn't help anyone. It was not meant to cause offence or cause harm. I'm being sarcastic.

The link doesn't take me to such that I can see....is it somewhere in their literature or did they post somewhere about these differences?

In any case no need to be sorry (and don't know how it can be offensive or cause harm particularly), I just find ASR an odd place to post a comparison done the way you have. Is this something you spend a lot of time/energy on.....comparing amps for audible differences?

 

[ommadusk]

The link doesn't take me to such that I can see....is it somewhere in their literature or did they post somewhere about these differences?

In any case no need to be sorry (and don't know how it can be offensive or cause harm particularly), I just find ASR an odd place to post a comparison done the way you have. Is this something you spend a lot of time/energy on.....comparing amps for audible differences?

There's a link to a post by @soerenssen and he backs this up in this thread. I wasn't going to compare them until I read his post. I'd already told Audiophonics I didn't want it so could I refuse to pay the VAT to customs and have it sent back, save me couriering it. It was definitely worth the trouble.

 

[ommadusk]

I knew it would create a little controversy but I don't see that as a reason not to post it. Some people here told me that I'm wrong without any evidence and they are welcome to their opinion. I would not tell someone they're wrong. It shows a lack of respect. I've responded to people who have put words in my mouth, been rude, got personal, and I won't do that anymore. That includes you.

 

[tuskenraider]

Since I've wasted my time reading this........I'll at least let you know your post helps nobody and you clearly don't know the audience.

 

[LTig]

I noticed while listening to more demanding genres like hiphop or in Rumble from Skrillex (around 1 minute into the song), the KEF's woofers seem to be struggling and at some point they get muffled for a moment, followed by a popping sound, but then it goes away immediately. I don't know if it's the speaker or the NCx500 amp.

Could be the power supply which is asked for more current than it can deliver. It breaks down for a moment (voltage goes down) and then recovers.

 

[Chrispy]

There's a link to a post by @soerenssen and he backs this up in this thread. I wasn't going to compare them until I read his post. I'd already told Audiophonics I didn't want it so could I refuse to pay the VAT to customs and have it sent back, save me couriering it. It was definitely worth the trouble.

You mean this line in that post? I cannot compare the amp to Purifi or Nilai (the former supposed to be better "musically", according to Audiophonics)

I'd have to review his comments in this thread again as well as that other I suppose to know more of this "difference" (and musically means what?)

 

[Sokel]

Hmmm - so which is it?

And bear in mind - in the second case you are not helping people, you are misleading them with inadequate testing processes.

On the other hand,it seems that some assemblers (don't know who) are making some wild claims according to this:

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

Referring to a couple of posts back. Dynamic Eq on definitely sets the surrounds a couple of db higher than off. Put on something like a fire or a waterfall (I tested again within a video game). Face it head on turn left and right and the sounds stays the same front left, centre and front right...

www.audiosciencereview.com

What to except from users if that's the case ?

 

[soerenssen]

On the other hand,it seems that some assemblers (don't know who) are making some wild claims according to this:

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

Referring to a couple of posts back. Dynamic Eq on definitely sets the surrounds a couple of db higher than off. Put on something like a fire or a waterfall (I tested again within a video game). Face it head on turn left and right and the sounds stays the same front left, centre and front right...

www.audiosciencereview.com

What to except from users if that's the case ?

Both Audiophonics and Apollon Audio recommended the Purifi. Indeed there are lots of contradicting info about their sound signature (some people hear a difference, others don't) and other than the different op amps I don't understand what else would explain the different perceptions.

 

[Sokel]

Both Audiophonics and Apollon Audio recommended the Purifi. Indeed there are lots of contradicting info about their sound signature (some people hear a difference, others don't) and other than the different op amps I don't understand what else would explain the different perceptions.

Interesting...

@Apollon Audio , @Audiophonics ,care to elaborate here?