What are people talking about when they talk about PRaT?

[DSJR]

One more go

I invigilated a music GCSE exam this afternoon. CD as source and played on a Sony Boombox (as written on the box it came in). One of the music pieces was a jazz one the singer describing how music and melody ain't nothing without 'swing.' Such is my terrible mind these days I can't remember the song title, but it's a standard! The presentation as recorded was straight laced and the singer showed little emotion - bare with me - and my audiophool reaction was that there was no 'swing' at all in the song as presented - Found the song and this version 'swings'

Deliberate fresh paragraph. Hopefully those of you who visit live gigs/concerts/events will confirm how 'straight laced' these performances are. You really need the visual input too to 'get' the event as a whole. Close your eyes in many performances and it just doesn't always 'sound' as good as when you can see the musicians playing. Maybe that's just me...

Now play similar music well recorded at home. A typical vinyl source will almost certainly make the source recording sound 'sexy' and maybe slight dynamic wow will 'enhance' or add-in this 'swing' in suitable music (or slight wow if a solo piano maybe ). 'Digital' done right simply cannot add in these nice effects unless programmed in and the onus then (assuming decent mastering) is totally on the music itself for the listener to engage.

Psychoacoustics - oh definitely and finally, do please remember that back then, truthfulness of any sort to 'original sound' had absolutely nothing to do with it!!!!! It was all about the 'effect' as presented by these 'domesticated PA systems.' For those of a certain increasing age in the UK - Linn Isobariks vs KEF 105's or original B&W 801's, Linn Sara's vs, Rogers Studio 1's, Kans vs, KEF 101's (Kans are like NS10's only more so - go figure)

 

[DSJR]

Its true that some more energy and eq around the midrange at 1,7 KHz ( +2 dB Q = 2 ) and also at 8 KHz ( + 2 dB Q=2 ) in an otherwise frequency linear speaker with good directivity can make the sound more exiting with certain music because you are compensating for the stereo system faults when using 2 speakers.

This is an easy thing to verify with GLM if anyone like to try it with their Genelecs.

Nah, Genelecs will NEVER have pr@t of their own - they're too damned good!!! if 'it' is in the music though, that's another matter entirely

 

[Keith_W]

Sometimes I wonder if subjective terms like "PRaT" evolved in the early days of hi-fi, where compared to today, there was a proliferation of poorly measuring and poorly performing equipment. Designers didn't really know what they were doing, and they did not have the measurement tools that we have today. In 2023, even a hobbyist can go out and buy a calibrated microphone, use free software, and take their own measurements. Oscilloscopes can be bought for a few hundred dollars. Information can be easily obtained on the internet, no need to order books (and you needed to know what books to order in the first place). In the early days of hi-fi, there were no fast switching transistors, you couldn't buy Hypex modules, and it certainly wouldn't be easy to construct a superb measuring amplifier in your garage with minimal skills and verify its performance with inexpensive equipment.

So it would be quite possible that things like "synergy" would be a thing - take a poorly designed amplifier and match it with a poorly designed speaker and the results would be unpredictable and all over the place. Take an equally unpredictable turntable and match it with the said amp/speakers and it is possible that the frequency response tilts that all the components introduce would cancel each other out and produce something pleasing. There was no REW and no cheap microphones so your only recourse was to listen. And as for "PRaT", I can imagine that a poorly performing amplifier, when matched with a speaker with a wild impedance curve, would struggle to deliver any bass which would certainly affect your perception of "rhythm".

In 2023, variations in equipment performance have been mostly removed from the equation. About the only unpredictable element left (from the designer's perspective) is how the loudspeaker will interact with your room. And even then, a motivated hobbyist with inexpensive equipment and free or cheap tools can go a long way towards mitigating this issue.

This reminds me of what a lecturer taught us in a history lesson - do not judge the standards or ethics of another era or another culture by the standards of your own.

 

[Short38]

It’s usually the recording plus alcohol consumption that determines prat.

 

[Chrispy]

It’s usually the recording plus alcohol consumption that determines prat.

Mostly the alcohol I'd think

 

[benanders]

Pace, Rhythm and Timing. So, I have seen this term around for some years, and I think that Pace and Timing maybe relate to perceived transient response. I am not going to work too hard to related subjective language to measurements, that's neither my problem nor my responsibility.

However, am really left scratching my head is when audiophiles refer to the effects of audio equipment on Rhythm. It's not just in the context of PRaT. Sometimes you see subjective reviewers talk about speakers or amps as if they did something to the rhythm of the music itself.

Do they actually mean the rhythmic content of a song sounds different to them on different gear?

PRaT:
Peer Reviewed? aaand Trounced!

 

[DonR]

PRaT:
Peer Reviewed? aaand Trounced!

Poor Recollection and Tinnitus?

 

[Mart68]

Does the studio also have bass boost due to room or aiming for flat? Genelec mentions to compensate bass level depending on how the speaker is placed or mounted relative to front wall.

you answered your own question there.

 

[DSJR]

I've got to post this song from just before the pr@t era - also sums it up nicely

 

[Thomas_A]

you answered your own question there.

Yes - but my point was more the lower bass energy of the Linn Tukan. Putting it near wall would be similar as putting the Genelec there, and use shelving filter to reduce bass. So Tukan may be design for more flat in-room bass as in studios?

 

[audiofooled]

I still get the impression that it's all in the recording and FR. Quite similar as various "harmonic enhancements" (distortion), all mixed in to spice things up, which neutral system is perfectly capable of reproducing. But still to this day subjectivists are chasing this kind of "tube sound" or "PRaT" or whatever.

Toe tapping? What about more modern EDM where the artist is solely responsible to make you want to dance? Here's an example of how one can try and achieve that:

This is normal/slow motion animation of the low frequencies waveform repeatedly contained in this track, actually taken at my MLP:

Note that it contains a wide range of frequencies, main peaks of which are reaching exactly the same level, so upper bass, mid bass and deep bass subjectively perceived simultaneously. So, 42, 60, 80, 105, 110Hz and almost anything in between.

Granted this is one of the more extreme examples but it makes me wonder about artist's intention when it comes to translation to a wide variety of systems, from small speakers to full range systems, and large, high SPL PA systems which would light a fire under your feet. Would it be something like, it's all there, so it doesn't really matter if your speakers would only reproduce 100Hz and roll off?

On the other hand, can a poor subwoofer integration or room modes mess things up so that you don't really get what's in the recording? Phase cancellation, group delay or such issues? I can only imagine the terms audiophiles would use.

Back in the old days when mastering was a bit restricted because of the vinyl limitations, also limited power when it comes to reproduction, certainly things were all over the place and perhaps difficult to describe. But today, would a simple lack of understanding perpetuate the notion that any part of the reproduction system, be it loudspeakers, amplifiers, or even cables, should do something more other than being neutral, have no audible distortion and noise?

 

[Tangband]

Pace, Rhythm and Timing. So, I have seen this term around for some years, and I think that Pace and Timing maybe relate to perceived transient response. I am not going to work too hard to related subjective language to measurements, that's neither my problem nor my responsibility.

However, am really left scratching my head is when audiophiles refer to the effects of audio equipment on Rhythm. It's not just in the context of PRaT. Sometimes you see subjective reviewers talk about speakers or amps as if they did something to the rhythm of the music itself.

Do they actually mean the rhythmic content of a song sounds different to them on different gear?

Music is ordered frequencies in the time domain. Most music will have tones and are the musicians any good, and playing together, there is also pace and rythm, even in classical music. This has nothing to do with the hifi gear, its the way music works.

The above statement is very important to understand.
Everyone agrees ?
Look at this graph:

Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz

Further, each tone in music has its center at a certain frequency . If the room response trigger a certain tone frequency with a peak*, Its gonna be harder to hear the melody lines from a bass player because one or some of the tones will have different level because of the impact of the room. On the other hand, If a resonance from the room has its peak between two notes there gonna be much less damage to the music.

When installing two speakers in a room using tunemethod, the placement of the speakers will be such as the impact of the room will do as little harm to the tones as possible.
This is why installation of two stereo speakers in a room always is done much better with the ears, than with a microphone.

———
*The same can be said about resonanses in the loudspeaker cabinet - If it triggers the frequency of a tone the cabinet will be considered as ” bad sounding” or ”unmusical ” .

 

[Tangband]

A question : will a bad linear power supply in an amplifier with some noise at 50 or 60 Hz have a greater negative impact on the tones in music than a switchmode power supply with some noise at 200 kHz ?

There is no clear answer to this, except that we as humans only hear 20-20000 Hz and many musical tones are between 40 - 6000 Hz.

….Maybe there is small sonic differences between amplifiers or even preamps or streamers ? Even If the traditional measurements look fine ?

 

[solderdude]

Poor SMPS can also have 100/120Hz components in it, just like linear ones.

besides... what does this have to do with PRaT (if it really existed and could be verified and described) ?

 

[Tangband]

Poor SMPS can also have 100/120Hz components in it, just like linear ones.

besides... what does this have to do with PRaT (if it really existed and could be verified and described) ?

Pace, rythm and timing are common knowlegde by musicians so it exists. This is what every band playing together is all about. Bad musicians dont gel together, so both pace, rythm and timing suffers.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, but what does it have to do with playback equipment and what does it have to do with a possible power supply DC rail voltage ripple ?

With does it exist I mean a veryfiable and quantifiable aspect in music reproduction.
What in a reproduction chain can affect bad musicians not 'gelling'

 

[Galliardist]

What is missing in tbe last few posts, is that notes are not just tones. Think about what happens with different instruments when a musician plays a note. The pluck of a guitar. T when a reed starts to move, The hammer hitting a piano note, and so on. If there’s anything to pray, it’s at the start of notes: @MattHooper has it right.

 

[Tangband]

What is missing in tbe last few posts, is that notes are not just tones. Think about what happens with different instruments when a musician plays a note. The pluck of a guitar. T when a reed starts to move, The hammer hitting a piano note, and so on. If there’s anything to pray, it’s at the start of notes: @MattHooper has it right.

You are absolutely right, but it seems many people are not even aware of that the notes appear at certain frequencies and everything inbetween those frequencies dont disturb the soundquality as much as a room resonanse that hits a given tone in the tempered scale.

Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz

A bad room or bad installation of the speakers can seriously impact the perceived enjoyment of music ( which contains pace, pitch, rythm and timing ).

 

[Gorgonzola]

My two-cents in this long-winded and mostly silly discussion ...

The term, "PRaT", I think originated with British audiophile critics, (is there agreement?): "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing", is usually applied to amplification. However fundamentally these are qualities of music, NOT of sound of reproduction -- so the term is basically ridiculous as applied to amplifiers.

OTOH, I believe it has an implicit meaning as used in amplifier reviews. I believe that it refers to specific dynamic quality which are probably related to small-scale and instantaneous volume changes such as associated with, e.g., drums and cymbals, hence the "crispness" of the sound. Other that PRaT, I heard the term, "microdynamics" associated with this quality. As between these two made-up terms, I prefer "microdynamics" as being slightly more meaningful and less silly.

Personally I'm convinced that amplifiers that measure extremely well in terms of distortion and stability under relevant loads inherently produce great "PRaT" or "microdynamics".

 

[thecheapseats]

...My two-cents in this long-winded and mostly silly discussion ...

that this thread/discussion exists in any form is absurdly bizarre...