What are people talking about when they talk about PRaT?

[kemmler3D]

Pace, Rhythm and Timing. So, I have seen this term around for some years, and I think that Pace and Timing maybe relate to perceived transient response. I am not going to work too hard to related subjective language to measurements, that's neither my problem nor my responsibility.

However, am really left scratching my head is when audiophiles refer to the effects of audio equipment on Rhythm. It's not just in the context of PRaT. Sometimes you see subjective reviewers talk about speakers or amps as if they did something to the rhythm of the music itself.

Do they actually mean the rhythmic content of a song sounds different to them on different gear?

 

[solderdude]

I think most people mean: something has PRaT when the music gets their toes tapping.
I suppose no one really thinks Pace, Rhythm and Timing can actually change.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Do they actually mean the rhythmic content of a song sounds different to them on different gear?

I hope not. That would be a misnomer or an hallucination.

 

[Chrispy]

One of my favorite terms in audiophilia. That it fits right in with appropriate english slang that could apply to one using such a term is just a nice bonus.

 

[sq225917]

It's a flat earth idea, usually associated with naim and linn amps. It was really just marketing shtick but actually also had a basis in fact.

From a measurements pov it was rolled off at both ends with a chunk of third harmonic in the distortion and a bit of ringing on transients. Neither linn nor naim have made amps that measured this way for 30 years.

 

[fpitas]

Thank you, Martin Colloms. We are all dumber for hearing about PRaT

 

[DonR]

There are people on this very website that believe a system's response can affect the "rhythm" of the musical content. I won't name names but they exist and are long-term posters. It is, of course, complete and utter nonsense.

 

[ahofer]

The owner of your wallet.

 

[thecheapseats]

hmmm... "prat"... if one waits long enough, a more absurd nonsense term will always emerge... what a wonderful world...

 

[majingotan]

One can actually muck up the phase of the system (one channel in phase and the other out of phase) and the unsuspecting audiophool thinks the PRaT is superb!

 

[radix]

There are people on this very website that believe a system's response can affect the "rhythm" of the musical content. I won't name names but they exist and are long-term posters. It is, of course, complete and utter nonsense.

I could see if one had bad EQ or bad room response, that the sense of rhythm could be diminished. I'm not trying to justify whatever those other opinions are, but just that a muddled sound could kill the rhythm.

 

[Keith_W]

Isn't that a turntable terminology? I mean, if your platter isn't speed stable or you have a lot of wow, that can certainly affect "pace, rhythm, and timing".

 

[raif71]

The actor in Guardians of the Galaxy or recent Jurassic movies , Chris Pratt . Yeah, I'm being a prat

 

[theREALdotnet]

I’ve heard examples of really bad PRaT with classical music. In all cases, the conductor/orchestra was to blame.

 

[kemmler3D]

There are people on this very website that believe a system's response can affect the "rhythm" of the musical content. I won't name names but they exist and are long-term posters. It is, of course, complete and utter nonsense.

Yikes... I didn't think that would be a real argument someone would make, especially about an amp...

I'd think you'd need problems with phase response amounting to at least something like at least 50ms of group delay before the rhythm of the music was noticeably distorted. Which is really outlandish...

 

[dfuller]

Frankly, I have no idea.

Maybe if your room is particularly bad and the speakers are spectacularly awful in the low end group delay/ringing department you could end up with things sounding wrong but I don't really see how.

 

[Galliardist]

I wondered about this term when I first came across it. Fortunately, a non-audiophile teenage girl put a roomful of us exactly right on this at a hifi show demo she'd evidently been dragged into.

"Have you got one I can't tap my feet to?"

 

[Chrispy]

Plenty of "audiophile" music that you can't tap your feet to.

 

[radix]

Could you please tell me how that could happen? I'm not sure I understand.

What do you mean by "room response"? Are you referring to reverberation so powerful that it is perceived as an echo?

Here is the etymological history of "rhythm", and various meanings. Which one would you say has a sense that could be diminished by bad EQ or room response??

16c. spelling variant or attempted classical correction of Middle English rime "measure, meter, rhythm," also "agreement in end-sounds of words or metrical lines, rhyme; a rhyming poem" (12c.), from Old French rime "verse," from Latin rhythmus "movement in time," from Greek rhythmos "measured flow or movement, rhythm; proportion, symmetry; arrangement, order; form, shape, wise, manner; soul, disposition," related to rhein "to flow" (from PIE root *sreu- "to flow"). Compare rhyme.

The spelling fluctuated 16c.-17c., rithme and ri'me also being used. From 1550s as "metrical movement, movement in time characterized by equality of measures and alteration of stress and relaxation." By 1776 as "regular succession of beats or accents in music."

Thank you.

Jim

Rhythm, IMO, has both a technical and psychological aspect. You could have two people beating out he same rhythm, one on a pillow and one on a snare drum. While they might be the same technical rhythm, the snare would be more psychologically engaging and a person would perceive it as a good rhythm while the other is just beating a dead goose. You can have a keyboardist play a riff with a crappy waveform, then change a few things about the attack or sustain and the same notes and tempo all of a sudden become a baseline from Thriller.

So, I was trying to say that if the EQ or room or something else is killing what a person perceives as engaging about a rhythm, then that person would say that system has poor rhythm compared to a system that didn't have that behavior.

Your example of a reverberant room could be one way that what a person perceives as a catchy rhythm loses its appeal.

I'm just being opinionated about the topic, I'm by no means an acoustics or music theory expert.

 

[Chrispy]

Isn't that a turntable terminology? I mean, if your platter isn't speed stable or you have a lot of wow, that can certainly affect "pace, rhythm, and timing".

Oh it's applied to digital as well, and makes little sense either way.