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64 Audio tia Trió IEM Review

Rate this IEM:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 115 59.3%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 49 25.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 21 10.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 9 4.6%

  • Total voters
    194

VQR

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Perfect measurements how? I was looking at distortion figures, Truthear X Cricnacle is not perfect in distortion, if I am reading the graph correctly, TxC had distortion 60db below level between 2-3Khz vs 50db of whatever this is called - that 10db which made all the difference to @Uwe , is it the difference between a perfect measuring IEM and an objective fail?

Is it compliance to target then because TxC is great at compliance to target, that is for sure. If that is the case what is then the point of Stealth or Expanse, why pay $4K if $50 can do it? Are they also cheats? Or HD600, Susvara, HE1000 and LCD-5 - in fact anything above $50 price tag and are not as compliant to target as TxC really - are these products are also objective fails in a world in which TxC exists?
Some prefer over-ears, myself included, for more tactile bass and not always wanting something in my ear to listen music. Also, the distortion figures of the Stealth put to shame the TxC, granted that's an IEM not an over-ear.
 

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IAtaman

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Some prefer over-ears, myself included, for more tactile bass and not always wanting something in my ear to listen music. Also, the distortion figures of the Stealth put to shame the TxC, granted that's an IEM not an over-ear.
Yes, agree and same here - I can not stand IEMs for more than an hour or two tops. I think that's why all my examples are headphones :)
 
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NoteMakoti

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Wish I took the time to demo these yesterday because I'm not sure what the selling point is just looking at these. The u12ts sounded magical, and the Fourté/Fourté Blancs, while just okay-sounding, were pretty enough to double as jewelry. If I could confirm these sounded half as good as the u12ts to my own ears I'd be in this thread as ignorant as can be, swinging an axe on behalf of subjectivity!

That being said, I'm afraid this board is becoming very myopic with regards to the TxCZ; I love my pair to death, don't get me wrong, but Truthear and Crinacle giving it really good tuning doesn't make it a flawless IEM, much less invalidate the greater IEM market as a whole. At least not until they make a version without gigantic ear canal-stretching nozzles.
 

MayaTlab

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1) Comparing several measurements from different sources

Which circles back to the question of sample variation. How do you make sure that the set of measurements you pick will correspond to your sample ? Thankfully some sources will occasionally measure several copies, but it isn't, to my dismay, systematic.

This is three samples of the Moondrop Chu, six earbuds in total, after normalisation :
chu sample variation after alignment.jpg

Perhaps I've been lucky (I mean, all of them had their filter in place), but that's quite reassuring and, if continued with additional samples, is definitely the sort of thing where I'd be confident to dismiss sample variation as a significant concern when using third party measurements.
But it's not quite as pretty for some of the other IEMs for which I've been able to measure several samples. Or even between the left and right channels to be honest.

2) EQing IEMs to a specific FR. For example comparing IEM 'A', which was EQed to 'B' with the original 'B'.

With the same tips as the ones used during the measurements, or the same tips used for both of your own samples, when listening to them ?

I think that the choice of tips and insertion depth / position can go from a rather benign problem to a tricky one. Here's a rather interesting bit that I stumbled upon recently. The Etymotic ER2SE is now sold with clear transparent triple flange tips that can easily change the FR when inserted in a straight 711 coupler clone in rather surprising ways, even when a) no leakage is present, b) the tip's flange is always positioned in the same way inside the coupler, c) the response produces a resonant peak at a similar frequency, and d) for most of them that response could be replicated at will with several reseats (these are averages).

ER2SE.jpg


For some of these traces the only thing I did was either pulling or compressing the tip :
Screenshot 2023-02-26 at 15.37.27.png
Screenshot 2023-02-26 at 15.37.33.png
Screenshot 2023-02-26 at 15.37.37.png


4) Theoretical reasoning, besides the ear canal resonance, there is simply no other interaction from the sound source to the ear drum, so no room for mysteries happening along the way.

Sam ex-from Rtings shared the comparison he made between the 5128 and Rtings' HMS. This is the data for in-ears :

Rtings 5128 over HMS IE.jpg


You basically get a trend with lots of noise around it. That upwards trend (with a hump around 800Hz and / or a low shelf below 500Hz or so) is similar to the one you'd get from a database like Hypethesonics (5128 vs GRAS). It isn't exactly clear what could have caused all that noise around the trend (could be leakage, or something called "acoustic impedance" of which I'm absolutely not qualified to talk about, effective insertion depth, etc.), but I'll give you one that neither relies on eartip nor on leakage.

I've started dabbling in measuring in-ears with a DIY probe microphone inserted through a single eartip (that happens to work for several IEMs), and compared the measurements with ones made inside a 711 clone coupler (from Aliexpress), still using the probe's mic - all the while also measuring the IEMs from the coupler's own mic at DRP :
Screenshot 2023-02-11 at 22.16.27.png
IMG_1292.jpeg


On the plus side it's reassured me that for the few passive dynamic IEMs that I've compared in this way, not only can the probe inside the coupler measure the same relative difference (difference in FR between headphones A and B) as the coupler's own microphone at DRP, at least up a few kHz, the in-ear measurements also match these relative differences very well - at least as long as the eartip remains a constant. So if I like how one of these passive IEMs sound, I can EQ the others to it per the coupler's measurements, and get the same FR (if I use the same eartip, I don't know yet otherwise). Above several kHz, more difficult to say. And in regards to the absolute values... well let's just say that I believe that in the end, when plotting the in-ear measurements over the in-coupler measurements, I'll obtain something not too dissimilar to Rtings' trends above, on average (not surprising given what we already know of the 5128 vs 711 couplers and the few in-ear IEM measurements that have appeared).

This all deserves a much longer post to be honest, but here's a rather interesting bit : measuring the difference between the probe inside my ears and the probe inside the coupler with two ANC IEMs (Anker A40, JBL Live Pro 2) with a feedback mechanism, both with ANC on and off :

ANC off and on EAR vs 711P.jpg


"711P" above means : measured from the probe inside the coupler, while "EAR" means : measured from the probe inside my ears. I made sure that the difference between ANC on and off was measured similarly by the probe inside the coupler as the coupler's own mic at DRP. The IEMs were inserted in the coupler to produce a resonant peak around 8kHz, but these trends are quite resistant to varying insertion depths (the SPL when ANC is turned off does not vary as much with insertion depth as the difference you see above). Of course in my ears the IEMs are just shoved as far as they'll go with that eartip (that won't produce a resonant peak at the same frequency, but that's exactly the sort of problem you're facing anyway when EQing IEMs based on ear simulator measurements).
These traces were not normalised at all, and all measurements were taken at the exact same volume, whether in my ears or the coupler.
The perfectly flat lines aligned at 0 up to a few hundred Hz when ANC is enabled should give a hint as to what is happening I think : regardless of how the IEMs behave in my ears vs. the coupler, the feedback mechanism clamps down on any difference in the range where it operates (up to a few hundred Hz).

I'm glad that EQing your IEMs per other measurements made with different samples have worked out fine for you, but unfortunately for me that hasn't been the case, at least at higher frequencies for passive IEMs, and throughout the spectrum for active ones with a feedback mechanism. Let's just say that I'm quite happy to have my own coupler and in-ear measurements as useful assists to EQ headphones to satisfaction.

Not that I want to stomp on measurements' usefulness, far from it, but neither am I in the camp "yeah they're good enough to EQ one IEM to sound like the other".
 
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VQR

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Yes, agree and same here - I can not stand IEMs for more than an hour or two tops. I think that's why all my examples are headphones :)
Also should mention, I wouldn't consider a headphone or IEM not tightly conforming to Harman to be objectively defective. If I remember right, statistically some in the Harman study varied in preference in bass, (<120 Hz) sometimes varying ±1-2 dB from target. Some also prefer a couple or so less dB around 3/4 kHz, which also corresponds with the Truthear Hexa. That's why I'm hopeful of Amir testing the Hexa eventually with a narrow bore.

With the Stealth, we get an extra few dB around 100 Hz, yet still sounds amazing according to many. I definitely do not recommend taking Harman as gospel, just a decent average of what tonality people would like.
 

Robbo99999

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Perfect measurements how? I was looking at distortion figures, Truthear X Cricnacle is not perfect in distortion, if I am reading the graph correctly, TxC had distortion 60db below level between 2-3Khz vs 50db of whatever this is called - that 10db which made all the difference to @Uwe , is it the difference between a perfect measuring IEM and an objective fail?

Is it compliance to target then because TxC is great at compliance to target, that is for sure. If that is the case what is then the point of Stealth or Expanse, why pay $4K if $50 can do it? Are they also cheats? Or HD600, Susvara, HE1000 and LCD-5 - in fact anything above $50 price tag and are not as compliant to target as TxC really - are these products are also objective fails in a world in which TxC exists?
"Near Perfect" I was referencing in relation to closeness of matching Harman Curve for the TxC. And also the distortion measurements are excellent at 94dB and still very good at 104dB, and because the TxC conforms close to Harman then most people are not gonna need to EQ any parts significantly (or at all), and the bass which showed the most distortion won't need to be EQ'd up by most people (so the 94dB distortion line remains the most relevant for most people).....well you can EQ up the subbass by 3dB to hit Harman at 20Hz, but that's a small boost. But, anyway, I just don't understand why you want to defend the $2300 IEM that is the subject of this thread, when objectively it's a worse product and costs ridiculously more - I fear we're going in circles.

That's a good point you bring up re the $50 TxC vs The Stealth. I don't really know how much better The Stealth can really be vs really well measuring headphones once they've been EQ'd and even in comparison to say TxC IEM we've been talking about. (I mean IEM's are likely to offer different soundstages to over ear headphones, probably worse on average, but still.). Yeah, so I'm a bit dubious about how much The Stealth would really improve my audio experience vs my EQ'd HD560s (and EQ'd K702 for instance*) - I do doubt that it would be a big positive difference which is one reason why I wouldn't buy it at $4000 (or whatever it costs). I would expect The Stealth to sound excellent without EQ though, and I would expect it to at least equal my EQ'd headphones, although there are some reports showing that The Stealth can react erratically on different people's heads - whereas that wouldn't be the case for my K702 for instance (on head measurements exist showing K701 as low variation between different head anatomies) & also The Stealth is a closed back headphone which might do something to reduce soundstage for instance. But I agree with Amir's review on The Stealth - yes it's an expensive headphone but it absolutely nails everything that is measured by Amir in his review as well as his subjective listening test - no way that could get anything less than top marks in the review even if it is a really expensive headphone.

I feel that you're overcomplicating & overthinking things - we have the reviews & information to make our choices.

*in brackets for distortion measurements.
 
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Ambient384

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I know it seems strange, but this level of distortion is normal for Balanced Armature standards. Almost all BA drivers spec'd for THD up to around 7%. There's also the issue that we still can't pick out how technicalities are determined in IEM's using the current measurements. Target curves aren't really hard for manufactures to meet, but a lot of them have their own research their own targets, 64 Audio IEM's are kinda well known for having a wide soundstage which is very uncommon among IEM's because they're lodged in the ear canal. While IEM's like Truthear Zero can be found for $50 they do lack the technical factors in detail retrieval and staging/imaging. There is still a pretty big discrepancy in technicalities from a lot of cheaper IEM's and the "decent" expensive IEMs. I'd like to see more measurement details analyzed like CSD & Impulse response as well. Crinacle said it best you don't pay for tonal & frequency response.
Not even the Ety ER4XR reaches that high at 100db It usually 0.7 ~ 1%.
 

nyxnyxnyx

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What you are trying to do is a reductio ad absurdum. But it doesn't work. It is simply true that if you take an IEM with reasonably smooth FR and without huge resonances and low distortion, you can EQ it to any FR, at least to, say, +- 1dB. Just the fact that people are still buying several and expensive IEMs does not prove anything. There may be good reasons for it (built quality, design, fit, etc.) and many not so good reasons ( don't know or trust EQ, believe brands and audio reviewers, too much money, addiction, etc).
I don't think I did a reductio ad absurdum...

I mentioned possibilities that this "x FR target = fidelity" hypothesis is far from bulletproof, and there's a lack of evidence to support it. And as far as I imagine, if this hypothesis is true, then it means any IEMs can just sound the best because EQ will take care of it, no matter what designs or physical attributes they have. I love that scenario as it means anyone can just enjoy fidelity, even for free, but it seems unlikely.

About people's buying habits, I don't mind if people buy $0.1 or $10000 products, so I agree that price does not reflect quality.
 

Tks

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Hey Amir, can I ask why IEM's are tested at far higher SPL's than speakers? I always wondered and thought it was down to concerns of driving so much power or damaging drivers or something.

Or is it some volume perceptibility reason?
 
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It would have been better if you have done both listening test and measurements with the same tips.
That is not possible. Larger tips don't fit in the fixture. And smaller tips as I noted, don't provide a seal in my ear.
 
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amirm

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Hey Amir, can I ask why IEM's are tested at far higher SPL's than speakers? I always wondered and thought it was down to concerns of driving so much power or damaging drivers or something.

Or is it some volume perceptibility reason?
For headphones/IEMs, I calibrated using the reference loudness for the rig which was 94 dBSPL. For speakers, I had used the precedent set by Soundstage in their speaker testing, hoping to bring some commonality where it was possible. I also can't drive speakers much louder like I can with headphones.
 

Maiky76

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Maiky, could you overlay the IEM Harman Curve that Amir uses with the new Knowles target? It would be useful to see how the Knowles Target is different from the Harman Target.
Hi,

Sorry but did you even read the post?
 

Tks

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For headphones/IEMs, I calibrated using the reference loudness for the rig which was 94 dBSPL. For speakers, I had used the precedent set by Soundstage in their speaker testing, hoping to bring some commonality where it was possible. I also can't drive speakers much louder like I can with headphones.
So it was an issue with available power that can be sent to some speakers?
 
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amirm

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So it was an issue with available power that can be sent to some speakers?
I have the power. The issue is the speaker blowing up. At 96 dBSPL, many get quite distorted. A headphone inches or less from your ears handles SPL so much better.
 

Rottmannash

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And they tend to fail within three to five years. *Every* BA IEM I ever owned has failed (Ultimate Ears, Shure, Massdrop, Nuforce, Kinera and some I forget), while I have some dynamics over a decade old. BA's are the staple of the hearing aid industry and hearing aid manufacturers expect the users to renew every 5 years or even more often.
Unlike you I've had dynamic driver IEM's fail but not one BA IEM...so far.
 

Rottmannash

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A valid point well made. I beg to differ. Their obscurity makes them even better signal of higher status, symbol of a man of higher perception and taste. Every idiot with a $30K in their pocket can buy a Rolex. But only a man of higher taste spends $3K for a product that comes free with the phone. You just need to find a good way of working that in to your insta post. If you think obscure audio products are not purchased as statue symbols, symbols of devotion to a taste, how do you explain $2000 audio cables then?
Do you believe the cables come with a price tag attached that the public sees? No one know how much someone's cable costs-as most look alike from a distance. People buy $2000 cables because they're told it will "lift veils" not because someone on the subway will become green with envy.
 

posvibes

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If you can sell inferior product at $2K why would a company bother trying to make superior product at $50.00.
 

majingotan

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Do you believe the cables come with a price tag attached that the public sees? No one know how much someone's cable costs-as most look alike from a distance. People buy $2000 cables because they're told it will "lift veils" not because someone on the subway will become green with envy.

2K is so yesteryear. 8K is the new benchmark for IEM cable snake oil

Capture.JPG
 

posvibes

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I am not a car guy but I take an inordinate amount of pleasure and a smidgen of smugness when in my humble Barina sit in standstill traffic jams behind the driver of a Porsche or a Roller for instance while negotiating peak hour mayhem to and from work. All that matters then is the aircon
 
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