Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Dismayed]

So we're 108 pages into this topic. Have we formed a consensus opinion yet?

 

[Newman]

Sure: it’s for reasons other than innate sound quality.

 

[mhardy6647]

Considering it originated from wax cylinders and evolved to the flat format we have today it has served us very well.

Imagine teenagers in the 1950s carrying around satchels full of Edison cylinders?

 

[Digby]

it’s for reasons other than innate sound quality.

The sound quality needn't be innate though. Many occasions I have found vinyl to sound better, noise problems aside, because the mastering engineer was better. Look at how people eschew more recent CD releases in favour of older ones, because of limited dynamic range through brickwalling. It is not unthinkable that the same may apply to vinyl, in that earlier engineers often knew their craft that much better, because it took far longer to learn what was needed, with no short cuts available.

Just because something is better in a perfect world, doesn't mean it is always better in the real world.

 

[Newman]

That's why I said innate. Mastering aside, obviously. Everyone knows that.

 

[levimax]

That's why I said innate. Mastering aside, obviously. Everyone knows that.

I don't have numbers to back it up but my guess is most people that listen to music don't know about different masterings or even what mastering is. When they hear an older LP with a dynamic mastering style "enhanced" by a real mastering engineer it sounds different to them because it is different. Closer to the master tape? probably not... preferred maybe.

 

[Inner Space]

Many occasions I have found vinyl to sound better, noise problems aside, because the mastering engineer was better. Look at how people eschew more recent CD releases in favour of older ones, because of limited dynamic range through brickwalling. It is not unthinkable that the same may apply to vinyl, in that earlier engineers often knew their craft that much better, because it took far longer to learn what was needed, with no short cuts available.

Well ... with absolutely no change to the sentiment or meaning, you could recast your sentence as: "In the old days, mastering engineers had to accommodate very, very few end use cases, whereas now they must cater to many, many more, some incompatible with each other."

In fact in vinyl's heyday mastering was largely a by-the-numbers process, about the technical needs of downstream media, with virtually no creative input. That today's releases sound at least OK on everything suggests that today's engineers know their craft pretty well too.

 

[levimax]

In fact in vinyl's heyday mastering was largely a by-the-numbers process, about the technical needs of downstream media, with virtually no creative input. That today's releases sound at least OK on everything suggests that today's engineers know their craft pretty well too.

Since I am not an insider I would be very interested in the facts behind the "by the numbers process" vs "creative input" for mastering engineers. If by the numbers was the case why would the record companies pay extra for famous mastering engineers back in the day and why would they "sign" their work? Regarding use cases I don't think people listen to music any differently now than in the past 50 years. Much listening has always been done in cars and portable music players, even good quality ones like a Sony Walkman, are nothing new. I have a rather noisy car and I listen mostly to older less compressed CD's ripped to a memory stick. Outside of having to turn it up a little bit I find I prefer listening to dynamically mastered music as compared to the same music compressed to the modern style. While the radical compression that is popular today got its start by trying to stand out as this point it is really just a style. Unfortunately this style does not translate well on high quality Hi-Fi equipment.... maybe it doesn't sound "bad" but to me it does not sound "good".

 

[Inner Space]

If by the numbers was the case why would the record companies pay extra for famous mastering engineers back in the day and why would they "sign" their work?

The creative end product was the final mix. The mastering stage for 99.99% of all vinyl records was anodyne stuff like equalizing the lengths of the gaps between tracks, summing bass, checking DR, etc. Digital was obviously the future by the mid to late 1970s, which was when the "name" guys started up, partly because the boutique-studio environment was as full of woo as the nascent audiophile scene at the time, and partly because there was enough money around to indulge the artists, who had big leverage back then, and could ask for boutique mastering along with no brown M&Ms.

Regarding use cases I don't think people listen to music any differently now than in the past 50 years.

No, it's radically different now than 50 years ago. There were two majority use cases only, vinyl records and radio. Vinyl was overwhelmingly listened to in stereo, with a recognizable "stereo set" laid out in an approximate fashion. The target was limited and narrow. Now we range from loose earbuds to frothy mono on homepods to faux multichannel from soundbars to giant bass-heavy headphones to a tiny rump of enthusiasts with excellent gear. It's a lot harder now.

 

[Newman]

When they hear an older LP with a dynamic mastering style "enhanced" by a real mastering engineer it sounds different to them because it is different.

Hang on, "older LPs" if we are talking about rock and pop genres from late 50s to 1980-ish, were not mastered with a "dynamic style" such as you refer. I see these old masters in interviews talking about the pressure to get the 'hottest of hot' sound on the vinyl, and how 'Motown Hot' was the awesomest if only they could figure out how to get it that hot. The studio legends, whom I often see audiophiles venerate, were the ones who could get it the hottest, which is just another word for dynamically compressed.

A common DJ scenario looked like this...

...and the music had to leap out of crappy AM radios (including those in convertible cars with V8s) and even crappier kids-bedroom all-in-one record players.

The mastering engineers of the day applied the tricks of their trade in service of maximum dynamic compression, the exact opposite of the "dynamic style" you mentioned. These guys were the true ancestors of the next generation of mastering engineers and the loudness wars, and had exactly the same objectives, but thankfully lacked the modern-era tools to take it to even greater extremes than the extremes they managed.

I would think twice before crediting them with greater skill or sensitivity.

What's worse, Floyd Toole has mentioned the common practice in the vinyl era of ditching the studio master tape and keeping only the vinyl master tape for prosperity. This tragic practice meant that, when it was time for CD masters to be made, in many cases the only options were to put a straight transfer of the hotter-than-hot vinyl master on CD, or try to improve it a bit. Imagine how much better many CDs would have sounded if the studio master tapes had been kept, as I reckon many more early CDs would have been straight transfers from them if they had been kept.

cheers

 

[levimax]

Hang on, "older LPs" if we are talking about rock and pop genres from late 50s to 1980-ish, were not mastered with a "dynamic style" such as you refer. I see these old masters in interviews talking about the pressure to get the 'hottest of hot' sound on the vinyl, and how 'Motown Hot' was the awesomest if only they could figure out how to get it that hot. The studio legends, whom I often see audiophiles venerate, were the ones who could get it the hottest, which is just another word for dynamically compressed.

A common DJ scenario looked like this...

...and the music had to leap out of crappy AM radios (including those in convertible cars with V8s) and even crappier kids-bedroom all-in-one record players.

The mastering engineers of the day applied the tricks of their trade in service of maximum dynamic compression, the exact opposite of the "dynamic style" you mentioned. These guys were the true ancestors of the next generation of mastering engineers and the loudness wars, and had exactly the same objectives, but thankfully lacked the modern-era tools to take it to even greater extremes than the extremes they managed.

I would think twice before crediting them with greater skill or sensitivity.

What's worse, Floyd Toole has mentioned the common practice in the vinyl era of ditching the studio master tape and keeping only the vinyl master tape for prosperity. This tragic practice meant that, when it was time for CD masters to be made, in many cases the only options were to put a straight transfer of the hotter-than-hot vinyl master on CD, or try to improve it a bit. Imagine how much better many CDs would have sounded if the studio master tapes had been kept, as I reckon many more early CDs would have been straight transfers from them if they had been kept.

cheers

What you say about extreme compression in the vinyl days applies mostly to top 40 stuff on AM Radio like Motown. Plenty of popular "Album Rock" played on FM radio from the late 60's through the 80's was recorded and mastered with a much more dynamic style than today's popular music or today's remasters of the older classic popular music. Pink Floyd, Dire Straights, Steely Dan, Neil Young, Steve Mill Band, to name a few and later in the digital age the original versions of Nirvana, Sound garden, Meat Puppets and many other Grunge Bands were recorded and mastered with nice dynamics. Just like anything else you have to be careful about generalizing as popular music during vinyl's heyday was quite varied in it's quality. I think it is safe to say that today's recorded music style is much louder than in the past, both because they can and because they want it that way due to style more than anything. I listen to the new Adele 30 album and it really is a technological marvel.... it is the loudest recording I have ever played yet it doesn't sound "bad" in any way yet it doesn't sound good to me either just loud. If I listen back to back to a Dinah Washington LP I have from the late 1950's I prefer the sound and style of the old LP even with it's noise and limited FR. There really is no right or wrong answer to recording styles, I know what I prefer which is not currently in style so I chase around old CD's and LP's. I just wish they would leave the older music alone to sound like it did rather than remaster it to sound the same as today's style but since that is not happening some older LP's can offer an interesting contrast in style which some people may prefer.

 

[Holmz]

Since I am not an insider I would be very interested in the facts behind the "by the numbers process" vs "creative input" for mastering engineers...

Money and accounting is always “by the numbers”.

 

[EJ3]

I alighted in Melbourne en route to North American for skiing, and had the skis.
The cab driver asked where i was headed.
I said Kitzbuhl.
He asked if it was near Flinder’s street station.
All I could do is says yes.
(Being from the subcontinent I suspect he never saw skis.)

I've been to the Freemantle/Perth part of Australia for about a month around Christmas in 2004. The locals wher whining a lot about how bad the "Mossy's (spl?) were at that time. After a while I inquired what a Mossy is. I was told Mosquito. I told them that where I'm from (the DEEP SOUTH, USA, at that time) we call them "skeeters" and agreed that they were bad.

 

[Holmz]

@EJ3 I think it is mozzie… and mozzies plural.

TT sound really good.
We can argue about it, but a mozzie near the ear, can damned near turn a saffron robed monk it a killer when trying to sleep.
(They <the mozzies> are much louder than any TT hum I can recall.)

 

[EJ3]

What you say about extreme compression in the vinyl days applies mostly to top 40 stuff on AM Radio like Motown. Plenty of popular "Album Rock" played on FM radio from the late 60's through the 80's was recorded and mastered with a much more dynamic style than today's popular music or today's remasters of the older classic popular music.

I use a somewhat modded NAD 4300 tuner & still listen to a lot of great FM (more than my vinyl and more than my CD's or any other digital sources [with my being on an island off the coast of Charleston, SC & my FM 1/2 wave antenna being 35 ft above sea level, I've go around 100 mile radius of good reception] {and there are some stations that do good FM}). When tested, the FM on the NAD 4300 can do 17 KHz (has to kill the 19 KHZ stereo carrier wave). I can't hear above 15-16 KHz anyway, so what happens beyond that doesn't bother me.

 

[Newman]

I've been to the Freemantle/Perth part of Australia for about a month around Christmas in 2006. The locals wher whining a lot about how bad the "Mossy's (spl?) were at that time. After a while I inquired what a Mossy is. I was told Mosquito.

Even our government knows what a mozzie is: https://www.health.gov.au/news/ozzie-vs-mozzie

 

[mhardy6647]

Ozzie vs. Mozzie.
I am lovin' that!

 

[EJ3]

I was only there about a month In December (2004)-New Years Eve 2005 (and mostly among the manufacturers of equipment for "Hot Rods" or people who are involved in Hot Rodding their vehicles.
I think that there are other words in in which we use the second syllable of a word as the basis for its abbreviation and you folks use the first syllable as the basis for it's abbreviation.

 

[Xulonn]

Getting back to the subject of this, yet another sidetracked thread...

While unsubscribing to an Airbnb email list, I stumbled across a blurb about Seth Rogen's house with a ceramic art studio in the hills above downtown Los Angeles, which he shares through Airbnb on a very limited basis. For those who don't know (I didn't), American actor Seth Rogen is also a ceramic artist and an entrepreneur [LINK] in the cannabis accessories field. The below photo told me immediately that the vinyl renaissance is indeed heavily rooted in the "lifestyle" universe.

Seth's slogan for the turntable - "Makes even your shittiest records sound pretty great" - is quite amusing, although it does ignore the added influence of cannabis.

Note that the audio system consists of a Pro-Ject T1BT turntable and a pair of Audioengine A5+ active speakers, which have line level in and subwoofer out. The A5+ speakers were reviewed by @amirm in June of 2020, and performed well enough to receive a recommendation from him, although as desktop speakers, and not as whole-room speakers:

"...the Audioengine A5+ delivers. It has higher than normal power and bass capability. And with a bit of equalization, produces truly high fidelity experience on your desktop.

As such, the Audioengine A5+ gets my recommendation and changes my opinion of the company/brand."

The Pro-Ject turntable with it's glass platter and Ortofon OM 5E MM cartridge should perform quite well. So we end up with a modern vinyl-based system, and no need for an external DAC , pre-amp or amplifier - discrete components that many of us agonize over endlessly. However, if the tweeter appearance has not changed (the BT version have tweeters that are centered, not offset), those Audioengine speakers are not the BT version, so a BT receiver/DAC would be necessary for listening to streaming sources.

The location and arrangement of the audio system indicate that imaging and soundstage were not a concern. However, for sharing a toke or two of fine, legal weed, visiting with friends (or Airbnb guests) and listening to music, this system should do just fine. Although not a SOTA audio system, I consider it good enough to be called a high-fidelity audio system.

Prior to tucking in for the evening, guests can:

• Get glazed in the pottery studio and receive pointers from Rogen himself!
• Peruse a selection of Rogen’s own ceramic masterpieces, proudly displayed within the mid-century modern home.
• Relax and revel in the sunshine of the space’s budding yard.
• Tune in and vibe out to a collection of Houseplant record sets with specially curated tracklists by Seth Rogen & Evan Goldberg and inspired by different cannabis strains. Guests will get an exclusive first listen to their new Vinyl Box Set Vol. 2.
• Satisfy cravings with a fully-stocked fridge for after-hours snacks.

In celebration of this joint effort, Airbnb will make a one-time donation to Hilarity for Charity, a national non-profit on a mission to care for families impacted by Alzheimer’s disease, activate the next generation of Alzheimer’s advocates, and be a leader in brain health research and education.

 

[Newman]

Classic non-audiophile vinyl. Of course it makes even the shittiest vinyl "sound great" when you set a really low bar for the word 'great', as in "this groovy grass is really great, man".