Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[Frank Dernie]

Luxury automobile cost is related to the production cost.

Not really all that closely.
The makers spend more per car on marketing than they do building the car, according to an ex-colleague who was a senior engineer at a well known one.
The luxury versions are the most profitable because their cost of manufacture isn’t as big an increment more than the price they can charge.
Clever production engineering is important.

The older BMW M3 3.2 litre 6-cylinder engine was pretty well half of the V12 engine BMW Motorsport designed for the McLaren F1 road car and cost wasn’t a factor there but the M3 engine cost more to make than a whole 5-series car so they changed to a M3 version of one of their production V8 which was much cheaper to make but was seen by customers as an upgrade and ended up with a car less expensive to make that customers were happy to pay more for.

Luxury cars are one of the biggest wastes of money there is unless you keep them for 10+ years.

 

[sarumbear]

For what it does (a lot) and how it does (extremely well), what else is available at 1/3 its price? What unit can decode 16 (32?) channels? Provide this level of customer support? Of Room Correction? Of subwoofer integration? Of upgrade-ability? Of ease of use (Yes).. Of <placeholder for whatever one wants >...????

Not only in decoding but Trinnov is probably the only one that correctly position sounds for Dolby, DTS, and Auro. Each system have a different idea where speakers should be placed. Trinnov’s remapping precisely maps the location of each loudspeaker in the room regarding distance, azimuth and elevation. When decoding a particular soundtrack Trinnov registers the intended placement of each of the various sound elements. Remapping then takes the acoustics of the room into account and remaps each sound to the proper locations by using adjacent speakers.

Remapping is the only solution to playback all available formats as the format requires without moving speakers or having redundant speakers, and as far as I know Trinnov is the only processor that offers such function.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Not really all that closely.
The makers spend more per car on marketing than they do building the car, according to an ex-colleague who was a senior engineer at a well known one.
The luxury versions are the most profitable because their cost of manufacture isn’t as big an increment more than the price they can charge.
Clever production engineering is important.

The older BMW M3 3.2 litre 6-cylinder engine was pretty well half of the V12 engine BMW Motorsport designed for the McLaren F1 road car and cost wasn’t a factor there but the M3 engine cost more to make than a whole 5-series car so they changed to a M3 version of one of their production V8 which was much cheaper to make but was seen by customers as an upgrade and ended up with a car less expensive to make that customers were happy to pay more for.

Look at how much a V-12 engine alone costs and tell me it does not significantly add to the price of the automobile. The labor to assemble low volume engines is exorbitantly expensive, and it is reflected in the vehicle price. My main point is that luxury automobiles are Veblen goods, such that the higher they are priced, the greater the sales numbers. The Trinnov processors are not Veblen goods, on the other hand.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Look at how much a V-12 engine alone costs and tell me it does not significantly add to the price of the automobile.

There aren’t many V12s being made any more since smaller number of cylinders with turbochargers gives better efficiency and a broader power band, but you would probably be shocked how inexpensive the cleverly production engineered ones are.
Not many are hand built either.

There is an astonishing level of irrational brand worship and misinformation about cars.

Anybody spending more than £30k on a car, like I have I freely admit is being irrational. I have worked in the business most of my life and have never spent as much on a car as my HiFi, which in retrospect wasn’t necessary but I have been enjoying my HiFi for more hours per day for the last 25 years when i bought most of it, than any car, so my music system has always been massively more cost effective than any car - though I did and do enjoy the sports cars.

Since most of my music is stereo and I don’t particularly enjoy films I don’t bother with surround sound though.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I have worked in the business most of my life and have never spent as much on a car as my HiFi.

I do sympathize—I have paid much more en toto on my various hi-fi and surround/HT systems than for my, my wife’s, and my daughter’s cars combined. That said, I do not see value in a single $14,000 component. And a HT processor is not a Veblen good. I don’t think many people do see spending $14,000 on a HT processor as a good value proposition, although there are a few in this thread.

 

[Dj7675]

That said, I do not see value in a single $14,000 component. And a HT processor is not a Veblen good. I don’t think many people do see spending $14,000 on a HT processor as a good value proposition, although there are a few in this thread.

And this, IMO, is the crux of the issue with your comments...
"Veblan good"... the Trinnov (or Storm for that matter) are not Veblan goods or status/luxury items IMO. They are acutally expensive tools to do a job. These tools have functions and capabilities not present in other tools for the job. If you want or need those tools/capabilities, you have to look at processors that have them.... when you start comparing various processors that have them, the list gets very short, very quickly....
-20 channels or more
-4 subs or more
-Multiway speaker crossovers
-Speakers requiring Speaker EQ-JBL M2, 708i etc
-Completely manual bass management
-Trinnov optimizer (and apparently endless tweakability)
-Manual PEQ
-3D Mapping
-Etc, etc etc...
These are features and tools not available in other processors. It simply comes down to whether or not these advanced features and capabilities are worth it to the individual consumer. If you don't, then it is not worth it. If the features and tools available on the product, it is worth it to that consumer. It is very expensive and that is a fact. But your statement of it not being a good value would only apply to you as these other tools and features are real, many only available in only a few processors, and are in fact worth it to many. So, you can add me to the list of those that would consider a Trinnov (or Storm in my case) a good value even though it is expensive. YMMV

 

[Frank Dernie]

I do sympathize—I have paid much more en toto on my various hi-fi and surround/HT systems than for my, my wife’s, and my daughter’s cars combined. That said, I do not see value in a single $14,000 component. And a HT processor is not a Veblen good. I don’t think many people do see spending $14,000 on a HT processor as a good value proposition, although there are a few in this thread.

Actually if I had any interest in multi channel reproduction I would certainly investigate the Trinnov and buy it if I liked it.
I would certainly use it more hours per day than any car and keep it many years longer, probably, too and wouldn’t consider it that expensive.
The R&D has to be amortised over very few units compared to cars, so the price neither surprises nor disappoints me, from an engineer’s perspective.

 

[Golfx]

And this, IMO, is the crux of the issue with your comments...
"Veblan good"... the Trinnov (or Storm for that matter) are not Veblan goods or status/luxury items IMO. They are acutally expensive tools to do a job. These tools have functions and capabilities not present in other tools for the job. If you want or need those tools/capabilities, you have to look at processors that have them.... when you start comparing various processors that have them, the list gets very short, very quickly....
-20 channels or more
-4 subs or more
-Multiway speaker crossovers
-Speakers requiring Speaker EQ-JBL M2, 708i etc
-Completely manual bass management
-Trinnov optimizer (and apparently endless tweakability)
-Manual PEQ
-3D Mapping
-Etc, etc etc...
These are features and tools not available in other processors. It simply comes down to whether or not these advanced features and capabilities are worth it to the individual consumer. If you don't, then it is not worth it. If the features and tools available on the product, it is worth it to that consumer. It is very expensive and that is a fact. But your statement of it not being a good value would only apply to you as these other tools and features are real, many only available in only a few processors, and are in fact worth it to many. So, you can add me to the list of those that would consider a Trinnov (or Storm in my case) a good value even though it is expensive. YMMV

I would like to add to your comments regarding “endless tweakability:”. I am amazed any company makes something this customizable.

Just for instance below I will post two photos from the trinnov manual. One is showing the setup configuration allowed for EACH of their over 15 input sources. Each source has the ability to be configured to over 14 different settings and then save them to that unique source. So you can choose for instance: max volume, sound input codec, then sound upmix codec, channels used, speaker preset to use, even clock speed, etc all then saved to just that input source. The second photo shows you have over 29 speaker presets. Each capable of using different speaker configurations from your HT, each with a different target curve, or cross over type per speaker.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Actually if I had any interest in multi channel reproduction I would certainly investigate the Trinnov and buy it if I liked it.
I would certainly use it more hours per day than any car and keep it many years longer, probably, too and wouldn’t consider it that expensive.
The R&D has to be amortised over very few units compared to cars, so the price neither surprises nor disappoints me, from an engineer’s perspective.

Like I said, there are a few people in this thread who think the Trinnov represents a “good value” at $14,000. Most people (myself included) do not think it is a good value proposition. ASR itself is supposed to be a fun and useful tool to hold manufacturers to account. I think it has done a good job holding Trinnov to account.

 

[Zooqu1ko]

As far as I'm aware there are only 2 processors that decode up to 24 Atmos channels (Trinnov & StormAudio) and Trinnov is only with up to 32 Channels of decoded 32 Atmos channels. For both they are flexible channel assignments to not like the other brands.

There's of course also the Smyth Realiser, at way less than half the price of Trinnov or Storm Audio. It does not have room correction (but maybe, in the future, Dirac, but I'm not holding my breath), and it's not clear if the 32 channel or Dante versions can output 24 independently decoded Atmos channels, so the >16 channel signal may be limited to headphone rendering only.

 

[Golfx]

Like I said, there are a few people in this thread who think the Trinnov represents a “good value” at $14,000. Most people (myself included) do not think it is a good value proposition. ASR itself is supposed to be a fun and useful tool to hold manufacturers to account. I think it has done a good job holding Trinnov to account.

”most people (myself included)” that’s a specious argument. Just your assumption.

I would counter most people simply have other priorities—even those with this hobby.

Amir had quite good comments about how Trinnov treated him and he did not (and probably never will) have time to test the customization abilities, room correction or 3D mapping which are strengths.

So “holding them accountable” seems to serve your perceived bias against products that exceed your self-impose money limits.

 

[sarumbear]

There's of course also the Smyth Realiser, at way less than half the price of Trinnov or Storm Audio. It does not have room correction (but maybe, in the future, Dirac, but I'm not holding my breath), and it's not clear if the 32 channel or Dante versions can output 24 independently decoded Atmos channels, so the >16 channel signal may be limited to headphone rendering only.

Smyth Realiser does not have multi-channels though, is it? It’s a 2-ch processor that simulates one for headphones, similar to Apple’s spatial audio for headphones.

 

[Zooqu1ko]

Very well said.

Regarding Trinnov customer support—after I received mine I was having HDMI issues during setup that turned out to be caused by the Apple TV 4K. Nevertheless, I was getting helpful emails after only a 30min wait that continued from Paris even on Christmas Eve night!

Another point not mentioned is that the software design of Trinnov has a processing power advantage over chip based systems. For instance most of the brand name processors and receivers have to downsample hi-res music to 48khz when using room correction because they lack the processing power to do both. The A16 keeps hi-res music to 24/96 while the A32 keeps hi-res music to 24/192.

The software/hardware architecture doesn't help if the updates aren't coming - Trinnov is more than 1 year behind with the release of the current version of DSU. Also, the Altitude 32 is limited to 96kHz for 24 or more channels, and 48kHz for 32 or more. They also have some limitations and bugs that are somewhat unexpected at this price point, but support is quick and efficient in finding workaounds.

 

[sarumbear]

The software/hardware architecture doesn't help if the updates aren't coming - Trinnov is more than 1 year behind with the release of the current version of DSU.

DSU is not exactly a home theatre function, is it?

Also, the Altitude 32 is limited to 96kHz for 24 or more channels, and 48kHz for 32 or more.

Limited to 96kHz for 24 channels!

 

[Zooqu1ko]

Smyth Realiser does not have multi-channels though, is it? It’s a 2-ch processor that simulates one for headphones, similar to Apple’s spatial audio for headphones.

The standard version has 16 channel analog in and out, there's a Blanced, an AES, a Dante and a 32 channel version. The outputs are preamp outs that can be connected to speakers, and my understanding is that it is certified by Dolby and DTS for use with speakers - for Atmos even with "Atmos ready" speakers. You have to explicitly switch it from SVS (=Smyth virtual Surround / Headphone) mode to speaker mode.

 

[sarumbear]

The standard version has 16 channel analog in and out, there's a Blanced, an AES, a Dante and a 32 channel version. The outputs are preamp outs that can be connected to speakers, and my understanding is that it is certified by Dolby and DTS for use with speakers - for Atmos even with "Atmos ready" speakers. You have to explicitly switch it from SVS (=Smyth virtual Surround / Headphone) mode to speaker mode.

I guess I’m looking at a different product. Can you share a link please?

Realiser A16 the world's most advanced 3d audio processor

The Realiser A16 is the world’s most advanced personalised head-tracked 3D headphone processor, rendering 15.1.8ch Dolby Atmos with breath-taking realism.

smyth-research.com

 

[Zooqu1ko]

DSU is not exactly a home theatre function, is it?

The Dolby Surround Upmixer most certainly is. That may not matter to you if you don't use an upmixer or prefer Auro3D.

Limited to 96kHz for 24 channels!

Haven't you noticed that, as of 4.2.16.9, the Altitude does not downsample incoming signals at sampling rates higher than this limit, but instead in most cases just stays silent or produces extremely noisy output?

 

[sarumbear]

The Dolby Surround Upmixer most certainly is. That may not matter to you if you don't use an upmixer or prefer Auro3D.

I watch films on my home theatre.

Haven't you noticed that, as of 4.2.16.9, the Altitude does not downsample incoming signals at sampling rates higher than this limit, but instead in most cases just stays silent or produces extremely noisy output?

As I said above I watch films and don’t have films that have higher than 48kHz soundtracks. Where do you find films with higher resolution sound tracks?

 

[MinMan]

That's some bold claims for headphones.

Realiser A16 the world's most advanced 3d audio processor

The Realiser A16 is the world’s most advanced personalised head-tracked 3D headphone processor, rendering 15.1.8ch Dolby Atmos with breath-taking realism.

smyth-research.com

I've heard of a virtual center channel - how do these headphone perform?

 

[Zooqu1ko]

I watch films on my home theatre.

And some people like to have their movies upmixed from 5.1 to 9.1.6 or whatever. Maybe you don't. Whatever.

As I said above I watch films and don’t have films that have higher than 48kHz soundtracks. Where do you find films with higher resolution sound tracks?

I really, really don't get the argument regarding the delay of the release of the current Dolby surround upmixer and movies - there's just no logical correlation at all. But you may have noticed that there's more than movies available in immersive formats, e.g. music. Even good stuff with sample rates of 192kHz, and the guys at 2l make disks where the only Auro 3D mix is 192kHz and cannot be played back on an Altitude 16 at all. That is the sort of limitation that I did not expect from a $17k processor, much less the $40k 48 channel version.