Are Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC Inconsistent?

[amirm]

Does anyone ever run a song through the DAC and analyzer to see how performance differs with music compared to test tones?

People do. Not because it is more revealing but because folks like you want to know.

The analysis becomes complicated because the DAC drifts in speed as it plays so you can't compare its output to input. There is a tool that attempts to compensate for this using signal processing but I have not been able to make it work.

All music can be decomposed into component tones. If a DAC distorts a single tone, then it distorts all the tones simultaneously, creating a more messy situation, not a better one. Fortunately our hearing is not very good as the music masks much of these distortions.

Note that the DAC has no idea what music or a tone is. At all times it gets a time varying valuing to convert to a voltage. In that regard, it is a very "dumb" device. At no time does it get an opportunity to do something different about a tone than it does about multiple tones in music.

 

[amirm]

How does THD of a DAC, translate to music performance with an amp either HP or 2ch? My current 2ch amp has .2 percent THD. That tells me as a noob that I shouldn't worry so much about specs my ears can't hear, as my amps distortion will probably overlay any DAC distortion.

THD is perceptually blind. See my tutorial here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

So you are right that just because you get some value of THD, it means one thing or the other. That said, I am pretty sure we can show 0.2% distortion is degrading. If you have a level matched alternate lower THD amp next to one you and could do AB tests as I have done, you would likely notice lack of resolution and slightly harsher sound in the 0.2% amp.

Note that distortion is additive. One doesn't mask another. So your amp distortion and DAC combine. In this case though, your amp has so much more distortion that it would dwarf the DAC.

Generally though, we are very much influenced by the fidelity of music content, than the equipment. A simple reverb in the track could give us far more sense of "space" than any extra resolution in the DAC. So it is not surprising that we enjoy well recorded music in much less performing gear.

The reason we measure is that we want to weed out poorly engineered products. Given a choice of spending the same amount of money, why would you want to spend money on the worse performing one? Better yet, measurements can tell you if even a lower cost device performs better which is the case here.

 

[amirm]

How does a DACs digital filter affect the test results it spits out from the analyzer? Again being a noob I would assume the digital filter is geared towards music and voice reproduction as opposed to tones reproduction.

Again, a DAC doesn't know what it is told to play. It has no optimization for one thing versus another.

Digital filters are mathematical concepts and are not voiced for one thing or another (except in broken implementations). None of the filters affect the measurements I have shown.

 

[amirm]

Is there a link somewhere to an explanation of "everybody's favorite test"? Again noob card, and I've not read up on the linearity test.

Again, see this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/. And the FAQ that follows it. I usually link this to my reviews but they are for my older analyzer and I am in the process of updating it for my new analyzer.

 

[tomelex]

THD is perceptually blind. See my tutorial here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

So you are right that just because you get some value of THD, it means one thing or the other. That said, I am pretty sure we can show 0.2% distortion is degrading. If you have a level matched alternate lower THD amp next to one you and could do AB tests as I have done, you would likely notice lack of resolution and slightly harsher sound in the 0.2% amp.

Note that distortion is additive. One doesn't mask another. So your amp distortion and DAC combine. In this case though, your amp has so much more distortion that it would dwarf the DAC.

Generally though, we are very much influenced by the fidelity of music content, than the equipment. A simple reverb in the track could give us far more sense of "space" than any extra resolution in the DAC. So it is not surprising that we enjoy well recorded music in much less performing gear.

The reason we measure is that we want to weed out poorly engineered products. Given a choice of spending the same amount of money, why would you want to spend money on the worse performing one? Better yet, measurements can tell you if even a lower cost device performs better which is the case here.

Good points Amir, I would add, I also like to reward the manufacture that provides "value for money", that gives a better technical product, or a more unique product or one with more features of whatever, reward excellence, after all that's what we all strive for.

 

[amirm]

Is it safe to assume that much of the differing opinions on here and head fi regarding Schiit (and other gear) is akin to the fanboydom gearheads are used to? An example would be proponents of your methods could be Porsche or BMW or Honda owners, and Schiit afficinados could be considered owners of Chrysler (scores poorly, unreliable, but people love their Jeeps), or Ford (reliable pickups and well made, but spartan interiors and overpriced) or Chevy (flashy and good looking, but not as reliable or well engineered as Honda), etc ?

There are different types of disagreements. The ones in this thread are aimed at others who say they have run the same measurements I have performed but get different performance. I have shown that in many cases they show the same poor performance as I. The difference is that they paper over it due to intention to defend Schiit by claiming performance is better than what measurements show. They aim to create FUD to confuse people from reading and understanding the work we do here.

There is also another class of people who go by "what I hear." Unfortunately the confuse what the perceive, with what they hear. I have explained this in the FAQ. Briefly, I can give you two identical cups of coke, one in red and the other in blue cup and get a bunch of people to say one or the other is better. Our perception doesn't just use our ears. It uses a highly imaginative brain that distorts what the ears deliver. Unless tests are controlled and the brain bias is taken away, the results are completely unreliable. As such, they cannot be used to invalidate measurements.

 

[amirm]

I'm honestly trying to figure out my next purchase, (2ch) and I want to know how to fit your site into my purchasing process. I love the sound the Schiit stack gives to my music, I have added components in pieces and have heard a positive improvement with each piece. I put a good deal of time into reading reviews and commentary on each component before purchasing.

I own a bunch of Schiit gear and have tested a number of others. I can tell with confidence that what people report on their "sound" is routinely wrong. Stay with us and learn what audio science says about proper way of performing listening tests. Once there, you will notice that much of the nice sound you consider Schiit products bringing, is not really there. And that there are better designed products for same or lower money.

Importantly, what we generate here is backed by highly reliable data. This is in sharp contrast with subjective listening tests where you can find any verdict you want depending on who you listen to.

 

[tranq]

Appreciate the info. Thanks all.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Take a sample of several modern D/A converter chips and peruse their respective datasheets. Look at the performance at 16/44, that is if they are brave enough to put the full specs for 16/44 in...

'Adequate measurements at 16/44' are really not what we are looking for are we?

Do you believe there is a problem with the ESS90xx or AK44xx chips, which are used in the majority of top-performing modern DACs measured by Amir?

 

[bravomail]

I read the history of Yggdrasil and overall Schiit products (book on headfi, free). You will understand why their higher priced products are not very good. Especially DACs.

 

[Jimster480]

I read the history of Yggdrasil and overall Schiit products (book on headfi, free). You will understand why their higher priced products are not very good. Especially DACs.

Yes because they are scams, sold with a gigantic marketing backstory (such as the book you read) to try to make them seem like something they aren't.
Its basically that simple, every product other than the Magni3 and Modi3 are complete scams.
And even the Modi3 & Magni3 have little reason to be purchased, as there are better devices for the same or less money,

 

[garbulky]

Yes because they are scams, sold with a gigantic marketing backstory (such as the book you read) to try to make them seem like something they aren't.
Its basically that simple, every product other than the Magni3 and Modi3 are complete scams.
And even the Modi3 & Magni3 have little reason to be purchased, as there are better devices for the same or less money,

IF you define performance measurements as the guidelines for "scams". If they were scams, why have their lowest priced products be their best performing? There are much cheaper ways and smarter ways to go about scams imo. Like making sure their lower performing products aren't besting their multibit offerings by a wide margin.

 

[digititus]

It's not a scam. It's clever marketing playing to the audiophool crowd. Supply and demand. I actually admire them for this even if their products are technically poor.

 

[graz_lag]

It's not a scam. It's clever marketing playing to the audiophool crowd. Supply and demand. I actually admire them for this even if their products are technically poor.

No lie lives forever ...

 

[digititus]

No lie lives forever ...

Correct. You create new one. Rinse and repeat

 

[Jimster480]

IF you define performance measurements as the guidelines for "scams". If they were scams, why have their lowest priced products be their best performing? There are much cheaper ways and smarter ways to go about scams imo. Like making sure their lower performing products aren't besting their multibit offerings by a wide margin.

No there aren't. This is a very clever and well thought out scam.
They have deceived people into believing that their higher end products "sound better".
If you take a look at their Modi 2, Modi, Fulla, Fulla2, Magni 2, etc.... each product was so piss poor that the next tier "sounded better".
Because they engineered their scam in a way that you would have a "noticable difference" in audio quality per "tier" when Yggdrasil was finally back at actual 16b music production (even if it was still piss poor 16b).

This way they could deceive you into paying $2400 for $100 performance through their marketing.

Every part of what I just described is a scam.
Nevermind that "upgrading" their scam parts also has a nice "fee" involved where they are profiting on your parts you send them + the parts they are selling you (which are mostly the same) to deceive you further into believing that it "sounds better".

It's not a scam. It's clever marketing playing to the audiophool crowd. Supply and demand. I actually admire them for this even if their products are technically poor.

Admiring a company for scamming just shows the type of person you are.

 

[digititus]

Admiring a company for scamming just shows the type of person you are.

Which is?
I don't believe it is a scam. I've made that clear. It is called marketing. It isn't illegal.

 

[digititus]

 

[graz_lag]

Pure & Simple very well engineered scamming process ... In one step they have been very clever indeed : the test trial period at home in your setup.
That was the smartest idea of theirs IMHO ...
(I have been cought twice in their fishing net 'cause of that ...)

Now also Mytek offers that, out of their plant in Poland.

 

[Jimster480]

Which is?
I don't believe it is a scam. I've made that clear. It is called marketing. It isn't illegal.

I think the type of person is inferred.

It is a scam. Marketing a scam in a way that isn't a scam is still a scam.
Just like the indian tech support scams that are "helping you fix your PC". Even if they "help you" in any way its still a scam.
Just like the roku activation scams where they charge you $70 to make a Roku account. Its a scam.

The fact that you don't think a scam is a scam makes you a scumbag who probably scams aswell.