Michael Fremer Leaving Stereophile?

[Vacceo]

I would like to see how TRINNOV is doing with their new ESS DAC board vs old one with SINAD 100. Audibly, probably no difference ;-).

AVR/AVP by nature can be typically played at loud volumes. That's where distortion and noise become an issue. And well, in this time and age, it should be a solved issue not just for the big boys like Storm, Trinnov or Lyngdorf.

 

[Sal1950]

I really, really hope Amir's work becomes the springboard for AVR/AVP manufacturers to step up their game.

There is no reason to not have them as well-built as great quality stereo gear.

From you lips to Gods ear.
I do believe there's good reason to be optimistic.
Amir worked with Denons people and we saw the results in the big improvement in their latest round of AVR's.
We've all been held back by Covid and the fire in Japan but I got to believe that D-M isn't going to be happy long term
with Marantz TOTL Pre/Pro's getting clobbered by Denon AVR's on the bench.
The Times They Are A Changin.

 

[Fidji]

AVR/AVP by nature can be typically played at loud volumes. That's where distortion and noise become an issue. And well, in this time and age, it should be a solved issue not just for the big boys like Storm, Trinnov or Lyngdorf.

If it gets over 105dB I will buy the upgrade, if not, then 2.500 euro can be spent on something else, e.g. another subwoofer .

 

[Vacceo]

If it gets over 105dB I will buy the upgrade, if not, then 2.500 euro can be spent on something else, e.g. another subwoofer .

Get the subwoofer first, even with the noise, there is no such thing as too much bass.

 

[Vacceo]

From you lips to Gods ear.
I do believe there's good reason to be optimistic.
Amir worked with Denons people and we saw the results in the big improvement in their latest round of AVR's.
We've all been held back by Covid and the fire in Japan but I got to believe that D-M isn't going to be happy long term
with Marantz TOTL Pre/Pro's getting clobbered by Denon AVR's on the bench.
The Times They Are A Changin.

Anthem has been quite clearly taking notes from Amir's work in their AVM90. If Sound United follows, that by ricochet affects McIntosh (some of their AVR's are Sound United designs), so logic dictates that the other manufacturers like Arcam will have to follow through.

 

[Sal1950]

if not, then 2.500 euro can be spent on something else, e.g. another subwoofer

Get the subwoofer first, even with the noise, there is no such thing as too much bass.

I agree, you'll always get better results from a speaker upgrade than anything in the electronic component chain.
Using multiple subs with some good DRC software can take bass reproduction to the next level.
Good Luck.

 

[mhardy6647]

Sal, admit it, you are secretly jealous because you sacrificed sound quality for the convenience of digital. You are stuck listening to chopped up waveforms missing 1/2 the music while I luxuriate in the full original wave forms, as the artist intended.



*bro fist to Mikey Fremer

Unless, of course, certain MoFi records are involved.

 

[Fidji]

I agree, you'll always get better results from a speaker upgrade than anything in the electronic component chain.
Using multiple subs with some good DRC software can take bass reproduction to the next level.
Good Luck.

yes, indeed. It was quantum leap from 2 to 3, and then another big step from 3 to 4. And what I learned about bass in my wild years with Audyssey [MSO/MiniDsp] now really comes in handy as my setup becomes more and more complex.

But those 3 idle outputs on TRINNOV are still itching me. Cannot go to 9.x.6 as my HT setup is really used 50/50 stereo/MCH and wide front speakers would ruin the stereo. So probably I will upgrade to 7.7.6 with additional 3 subs being used as FR extension for C, SRB&SR, thinking of some small RELs just to get below 30HZ. TRINNOV can function as active crossover.

But before that, I think I am going to buy really BIG center speaker ;-).

 

[krabapple]

I would slightly disagree on both of your statements - I do not see neither of JA's as "multich haters" - as being hater implies some activity towards the object of your hatred. I think they just do not see multichannel as interesting enough, so they ignore it. In their position end effect is the same. I do not see anything like editorials titled "Spatial Audio - forget it, is just another blind alley" or similar. They just don't care.

Maybe. I think the litmus test would be: are either of them on record as having ever noted that 'we only have two ears'?

Multichannel Audio will alwyas be niche market - first and foremost - you have completely different level of requirement for the space and installation, so 90% of people that install MCH will always have heavy compromised output, just because they are not able to properly place their speakers, do not have space for multisub etc. And honestly - 80% of what is available as Dolby Atmos music is just pure crap. I do not need to listen to some unspeakable hip/hop/r&b nausea inducing music in 3D. You probably have like max 50 hours of really good. well mixed MCH material available for streaming. [not counting 5.1 SACD recordings from the past].

'hip/hop/R&B nausea? Really? Talk about a broad brush.

(what is hip/hop, anyway?)

 

[krabapple]

Outside of movies, I just don't think anyone much cares about surround sound.

That's like saying , 'outside of beer, I don't think anyone cares much about drinking alcohol'. Several of my friends -- boomers my age who care a lot about music, but are not 'audiophiles' and wouldn't dream of boring themselves catatonic by following forums like ASR -- have surround setups of some sort, and even those who don't are wowed by it when they hear it. I daresay hearing my system(s) had a hand in that, but it definitely wasn't just that. Movies and concerts DVDs have offered surround soundtracks for a quarter century now.

And nowadays even soundbars and speakers systems build into flatscreens offer a pseudo-'surround' experience.

 

[krabapple]

I think we are on the same page re. life-style MCH - actually majority of people are best served with some variant of Sonos/Bose/Samsung set-up [DOlby Atmos!! 3D!!!]7

What I meant, that even audio aficionados, who spend thousand of eurodollars on latest and greatest headshell for their cartridge (so your Stereophile reader and M.Fremer fan) are not interested in MCH,

I dispute the word 'even' (see above). But who cares what Stereophile-reading 'audio aficionados' like? They are deeply invested in magical thinking. They certainly do not drive the bulk of audio technology sales.

 

[krabapple]

"It was my adherence to Snow's dictum that ended our relationship," I continued. "Gordon told me in 1999 that Stereophile must abandon its coverage of two-channel components and stereo recordings in favor of surround sound and multichannel recordings. My rejection of Gordon's proposal, among other conflicts, led to his resignation. Yes, it was possible that music in surround sound might eventually dominate audio. But it might not. For Stereophile to adopt Gordon's strategy would mean that it would be too much more than a little above its readers."

Abandon? That seems to have very unfortunately set up a false choice: EITHER multichannel OR two-channel coverage.

I wonder why on earth Holt thought it had to be that way.

 

[krabapple]

To me, that still sounds pretty fundamental and, over the years, there have been many instances where it has been demonstrated to me by stereo/multichannel comparisons. It is also, Floyd Toole's position, among others. I do acknowledge that really good stereo recordings well reproduced can be eminently satisfying..................until they they are compared to the multichannel recording.

ASR's own J_J has, in presentations and posts over years and venues, also noted the technical/psychoacoustic deficiencies inherent to two channel.

As with vinyl , it's really a case of 'even with these flaws......pleasing sound manages to happen'.

(And "you get to like what you like" -- there's no accounting for personal preference)

And really, this topic belongs in A NEW THREAD, not here.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

There is no reason to not have them as well-built as great quality stereo gear.

Except for the requirement that costs be controlled so that they don't price out the average person who is cost sensitive. How many times have you seen posts here on ASR along the lines of "what is the cheapest amplifier I can buy for.......".

 

[mhardy6647]

Multi-channel is, from my perspective, a gee-whiz, wow, isn't that cool gimmick, be it used in movie soundtracks or in music.
It is not realistic, much less real (again, from my perspective).

Indeed, as I reflect upon the topic, I would think that it would be straightforward in 2022 AD (or CE, as one prefers), to measure quantitatively and objectively, some significant aspects of the "soundfield" (maybe intensity as a function of location and wavelength, I don't know) in an actual venue of an actual musical performance, and then to compare that matrix of data, quantitatively and objectively, to the reproduction of a mono, stereo, or x.y.z multichannel recording of the performance in an arbitrary domestic environment (i.e., somebody's hifi or HT "room") with commercial (domestic) hifi equipment.

I suspect the results might be enlightening.

 

[Sal1950]

(what is hip/hop, anyway?)

The total dominance of rhythm over melody.
Just Plain Garbage.

 

[Robin L]

(what is hip/hop, anyway?)

The dominant mode of expression in popular music these days.

Now get off my lawn.

 

[Sal1950]

I also suspect that the headphone 'explosion' and popularity has doomed widespread adoption of multichannel music.

Totally wrong my friend. Headphone listening is the driving force behind the Atmos and Spatial sound explosion on the streamers.
Your whole post reveals your complete misunderstanding of the multich music universe.

Outside of movies, I just don't think anyone much cares about surround sound.

Tell the guys at QuadraphonicQuad.com that. LOL

 

[krabapple]

The total dominance of rhythm over melody.

What's funny is how many old fogeys accused rock and roll of that too (some still do).

Just Plain Garbage.

Should I defer to your expertise in the genre?

 

[Sal1950]

Should I defer to your expertise in the genre?

Absolutely.