Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[captainbeefheart]

First we would need to define what is the "bad" kind and what is the "worse" kind. Then, and only then, could we progress to the next step. Jim

Well typically amplitude modulation is more pronounced.

When they studied the vibrato of a violin they found it contained both FM and AM. When testing circuits out for modulation effects to sound as close to real violin vibrato they found that the FM content was small and could be omitted and the AM was sufficient to create the desired effect. Test listeners said FM was dull and not as exciting as AM. Most all of the guitar vibrato/tremolo effects built into the circuitry is AM and it's very noticeable.

 

[theREALdotnet]

My impression is that waveforms, spectrograms and REW comparison through a transparent audio interface will give all the required information

Absolutely, between the three they will. In the examples I linked, the piece of information missing in the spectral plot is clearly visible in the waveform, but then this was a hefty dose of distortion. With amps that have -60dB or less distortion it will be clearly seen in the spectrum but be invisible in the waveform plot. Hence, waveforms are no use with real modern amps, which robs us of the only way to determine the type/character of distortion.

Now, we could say (and it has been said many times in this thread) that the type or character of the distortion is irrelevant. Amps measure -80dB THD or better, the stuff is simply not audible. I totally agree, we can say that with great confidence. However, we can’t say that and at the same time rank amplifiers by SINAD, as the primary “buyer’s guide” criterion. When ranking amps we should use a criterion that matters, not one that is irrelevant.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Well typically amplitude modulation is more pronounced.

When they studied the vibrato of a violin they found it contained both FM and AM. When testing circuits out for modulation effects to sound as close to real violin vibrato they found that the FM content was small and could be omitted and the AM was sufficient to create the desired effect. Test listeners said FM was dull and not as exciting as AM. Most all of the guitar vibrato/tremolo effects built into the circuitry is AM and it's very noticeable.

I wonder whether a similar investigation has been done with amplifiers. I’d imagine it to be very difficult, since the amount of IMD is tiny compared to a violin.

 

[tmtomh]

Now I’m confused.

So the doctrine tells us to believe that you

. And we all do.

What is it then that

?

I think @HuubFranssen is saying the ASR/objectivist “doctrine” is that you believe he heard a difference, as opposed to believing there actually is a difference.

In other words, he appears to be claiming that you - and most of the rest of us - are hypocritically pretending to be committed to scientific inquiry when in reality we are closed-minded and adhere to a rigid doctrine that says heard differences not backed by measurements must be purely subjective and cannot have any objective reality.

If I’m understanding his argument correctly, it’s the same-old same-old: he starts from the unsupported belief that what he individually hears is evidence in the same way as - or even more than - measurements, and then chides you for “believing” in measurements - it’s like when religious conservatives say that atheism is “just another religion.”

I’m sure he’ll post a comment correcting me if I’m misunderstanding what he was trying to say.

 

[DanielT]

Unless that system uses vacuum tubes and horn speakers, its no good. Says me.

You get the point - a 'reference system' is impractical since different people will have different ideas on its makeup, even though all the approaches might be equally good at their task of reproducing convincing music.

A much better reference is an Audio Precision analyzer.

I can mention ice cream.
When comparing different types of ice cream, you must always have strawberry ice cream as a reference, because it is the best ice cream.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I can mention ice cream.
When comparing different types of ice cream, you must always have strawberry ice cream as a reference, because it is the best ice cream.

Nonsense! Chocolate (triple is best) all the way!

 

[Sal1950]

If the distortion components are small enough, then the amps will sound identical.

And they are small enough in all modern solid-state amps.

Wow this thread is filling fast!

Anyway @MarkS you are mostly right.
Only thing is there are a few designers building SS amps to a "house sound" or whatever you chose to call it. A number of Nelson Pass SS designs have had some purposeful bending of the rules to get a more "tube like" sound, specially in his DIY stuff.

 

[Rednaxela]

I think @HuubFranssen is saying the ASR/objectivist “doctrine” is that you believe he heard a difference, as opposed to believing there actually is a difference.

In other words, he appears to be claiming that you - and most of the rest of us - are hypocritically pretending to be committed to scientific inquiry when in reality we are closed-minded and adhere to a rigid doctrine that says heard differences not backed by measurements must be purely subjective and cannot have any objective reality.

If I’m understanding his argument correctly, it’s the same-old same-old: he starts from the unsupported belief that what he individually hears is evidence in the same way as - or even more than - measurements, and then chides you for “believing” in measurements - it’s like when religious conservatives say that atheism is “just another religion.”

That would all be very unfortunate, especially the highlighted part.

Of course the opposite is true. The doctrine says that heard differences can have an objective reality.

 

[BlackTalon]

It can also be applied chemistry, e.g. chemists working in some industries have the title "chemical engineer."

Chemical engineering is a real thing. The college I attended had a ChemE program, and it was the hardest engineering degree to obtain. The students went through all the same science and engineering fundamentals classes as the eventual mechanical, electrical, civil and industrial engineers. Nuclear engineer is a specialization within ChemE. You might need to know a bit about physics, etc. to graduate as a nuclear engineer.

 

[Vacceo]

Now there I agree with you 100%. Whenever I use the term “objectivism” here or on other audio forums, I cringe a little because I’d never want anyone to think I associate myself with that awful pathology.

If you think about subjetivism in an academic background, you can imagine my similar cringes. In social sciences, subjectivism is valid (and required in Anthropology, for example) as long as you are fair and open about your methodology. Foucault is a good example.

 

[DanielT]

Nonsense! Chocolate (triple is best) all the way!

Two people:
-Why don't you buy ice cream without studying the contents?
-What's wrong with that? I want to know how much % real cream the ice cream contains, so I know if there is any potential for it to be good.
- You taste ice cream, not something you read about , the content of it!
- But do you take ice cream at random without even check what kind of flavor it has?
-Of course I'll check that!

...and so on ..

Ice cream is slightly cheaper than for example speakers should be added. It doesn't matter if you buy a bad-tasting ice cream.Just buy another kind of ice cream that you like in that case.

 

[HuubFranssen]

I think @HuubFranssen is saying the ASR/objectivist “doctrine” is that you believe he heard a difference, as opposed to believing there actually is a difference.

In other words, he appears to be claiming that you - and most of the rest of us - are hypocritically pretending to be committed to scientific inquiry when in reality we are closed-minded and adhere to a rigid doctrine that says heard differences not backed by measurements must be purely subjective and cannot have any objective reality.

If I’m understanding his argument correctly, it’s the same-old same-old: he starts from the unsupported belief that what he individually hears is evidence in the same way as - or even more than - measurements, and then chides you for “believing” in measurements - it’s like when religious conservatives say that atheism is “just another religion.”

I’m sure he’ll post a comment correcting me if I’m misunderstanding what he was trying to say.

Mostly true, except the cynical part. The ‘unsupported belief’ is not unsupported at all; a lot of people that rely on their own ears. They have to, not everyone has a Toole recommended carousel of speakers, behind cloths, to select their favourite speaker blind.

No one dears to speak himself out anymore. My ‘doctrine’ is: measuring is key, and then you listen. And write about it. I think it is interesting to know that an RME ADI-2 fs sounds different than a Topping D90se. And when 99 people write that they sound the same and 1 (me) that they sound different it is interesting information too.

 

[Geert]

The ‘unsupported belief’ is not unsupported at all; a lot of people that rely on their own ears.

In this context "supported" means supported by evidence. Many people relying on their ears is not evidence. It can become evidence as the result of a controlled listening test. This test still relies on your ears, but assures there are no errors being made that invalidate the conclusions. But you know all of that already, nevertheless you think it's necessary to push on. And than you accuse others of following a doctrine...

No one dears to speak himself out anymore.

Some people speak to much. They often tend to be bad listeners.

 

[FrantzM]

"A Lot" comes up whenever data is non-existent.
It then, comes up ... a lot

Peace

 

[HuubFranssen]

In this context "supported" means supported by evidence. Many people relying on their ears is not evidence. It can become evidence as the result of a controlled listening test. This test still relies on your ears, but assures there are no errors being made that invalidate the conclusions. But you know all of that already, nevertheless you think it's necessary to push on. And than you accuse others of following a doctrine...



Some people speak to much. They often tend to be bad listeners.

The unpleasant truth is that, in your universe, you need blind tests to compare all gear on a permanent basis. And that will never happen. Performing a limited blind test yourself (and writing about it) will not be believed by everybody.

So you have to compare yourself, like almost everyone does. When I accuse measure-heroes like you that they must think good-measuring dacs or amplifiers sound the same they get angry and say ‘ofcourse not’. The subjective part of the hobby they keep for themselves.

Very, very strange.

Even stranger is when you really think the perfect measuring gear really sounds the same. Mind over matter. I wonder how these people select their favorite speaker. They must sleep terribly knowing they are subjectivist too.

 

[kokakolia]

I can mention ice cream.
When comparing different types of ice cream, you must always have strawberry ice cream as a reference, because it is the best ice cream.

This is where you're very, very wrong. In the USA the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) sells reference products for lab purposes. One of those products is a basic jar of peanut butter with a specific chemical composition for reference. This is also true for a lot of packaged goods, including ice cream.

You can purchase 3 170g jars of peanut butter from the NIST for $1069 here:

Shop NIST | E-Commerce Store

www-s.nist.gov

The interesting part about this is that the peanut butter isn't of the highest quality. In the Hi-Fi world this would be like arbitrarily choosing the BBC LS3/5A for reference.

 

[DanielT]

This is where you're very, very wrong. In the USA the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) sells reference products for lab purposes. One of those products is a basic jar of peanut butter with a specific chemical composition for reference. This is also true for a lot of packaged goods, including ice cream.

You can purchase 3 170g jars of peanut butter from the NIST for $1069 here:

Shop NIST | E-Commerce Store

www-s.nist.gov

The interesting part about this is that the peanut butter isn't of the highest quality. In the Hi-Fi world this would be like arbitrarily choosing the BBC LS3/5A for reference.

What are the standards that speaker manufacturers follow?
This speaker, subwoofer is certified, follows..X standard ?

 

[Geert]

The unpleasant truth is that, in your universe, you need blind tests to compare all gear on a permanent basis.

The truth in "my universe" is supported by science and rational thinking in general, so I feel pretty comfortable knowing I can rely on the knowledge of brilliant minds. We're not asking for permanent blind tests for audio. Just do one, in a decent manner, as a learning experience. It's a humbling experience for many people who did.

When I accuse measure-heroes like you that they must think good-measuring dacs or amplifiers sound the same they get angry and say ‘ofcourse not’.

As you don't know anything about my beliefs about the sound of DAC's and amps you're showing improper reasoning. And I do understand the measurements and did the listening tests, both of which you don't, so you're in no place to tell me wrong.

The subjective part of the hobby they keep for themselves.

No we don't. We just don't try to sell it as "the truth".

 

[kokakolia]

What are the standards that speaker manufacturers follow?
This speaker, subwoofer is certified, follows..X standard ?

This answer is not clear. But your best bet would be to search the Canadian NRC speaker measurements. Companies like Axiom and PSB directly work with the NRC to design their speakers. The NRC has a standard. It is not widely known or used.

Also look into the "Soundstage Network". They publish speaker reviews with NRC measurements.

 

[AdamG]

When I accuse measure-heroes like you that they must think good-measuring dacs or amplifiers sound the same they get angry and say ‘ofcourse not’

Very, very strange.

That is the best written backhanded insult I have read in quite some time. Well done Sir. (Bolded by me)