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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Newman

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To say the media is great but the playback sucks is accurate but it doesn't matter, the playback is what you get and so no matter how great the media can be in it's quiescent pressed form that's not really the argument.
Exactly. Anyway, the media itself in its quiescent pressed form has RIAA and would sound laughably horrible in itself, so to speak. Very, very moot.

Let’s ask the vinyl over-lovers why 45 rpm 12” records are so revered, if 33 rpm is so delightfully adequate and its inadequacies so inaudible. Is it all just hypocrisy?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Let’s ask the vinyl over-lovers why 45 rpm 12” records are so revered, if 33 rpm is so delightfully adequate and its inadequacies so inaudible. Is it all just hypocrisy?
That one is pretty simple; its the same principle as 15 ips tape being superior to 7 1/2 ips tape. The faster speed allows the recorded waveform to occupy a larger physical space which increases headroom, HF saturation characteristics, and HF extension. As good as 33 1/3 RPM can be, 45 RPM gives the embedded waveform more physical space which translates to more headroom before the high frequency waveforms get so dense that distortion becomes an issue, and the HF response is extended. If LPs were available at 78 RPM, the reproduction would be even better.

I have a good number of LPs (not 7") which are at 45 RPM and a normal album occupies two discs. These sound noticeably cleaner when directly compared to the same disc at 33 1/3.
 

Newman

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So is it worth having?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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So is it worth having?
Do you mean 45 RPM versions? If that's what you mean, then yes, if given a choice I always go for the 45 RPM versions despite the increased cost.
 

pseudoid

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Again, the main limitations of LP is not the media- its the playback.
I am having much difficulties agreeing with this statement... beyond the chicken/egg dilemma it poses.
I am more inclined to think that the media is flawed; while the playback 'system' is trying to compensate for the many physical limitations of the media.
Would you be able to explain your statement in respect to the following LP media deficiencies issues?
Longevity/Wear? RIAA curves? ChannelSeparation? Inner/Outer groove sonic differences? Lower Octave space limitations?
 

levimax

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Do you mean 45 RPM versions? If that's what you mean, then yes, if given a choice I always go for the 45 RPM versions despite the increased cost.
They usually do sound better (always louder which I think is part of why they are perceived better) but 17-20 minuets per side is about right... 45's are more like 8 to 10 min per side which requires a lot of record changing.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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They usually do sound better (always louder which I think is part of why they are perceived better) but 17-20 minuets per side is about right... 45's are more like 8 to 10 min per side which requires a lot of record changing.
45 RPM 12-in discs are usually cut with higher modulation because there's less need to cram as much music on each side. The higher modulation level naturally yields a better signal noise ratio.
 

EJ3

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I don't doubt that. The only experience with these records I have is hearing about them when they were a thing. I seem to remember that only the surround tracks were FM encoded, but I could be wrong.
yes, it was FM encoded: The Shibata is a “severe profile” originally developed for quadraphonic LPs that feature an ultra-high frequency tone approaching 45,000Hz, making imbecilic the arguments of CDs fans who claim their favorite format produces superior high frequencies compared to vinyl’s “soft, rolled off, frequency limited top end”.

The Shibata stylus features a very small horizontal contact area and a wider vertical one. It can better trace the grooves, particularly the inner ones where the wavelengths get “scrunched” due to smaller groove radii. The Shibata produces less record wear too.

But the stylus profile requires careful SRA setting to get good sonic results and low Intermodulation Distortion (IM), so it should only be used on tone arms that allow you to adjust VTA/SRA and only if you are willing to go the “extra mile” during set-up. (yes, it was FM encoded)
 

MakeMineVinyl

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yes, it was FM encoded: The Shibata is a “severe profile” originally developed for quadraphonic LPs that feature an ultra-high frequency tone approaching 45,000Hz, making imbecilic the arguments of CDs fans who claim their favorite format produces superior high frequencies compared to vinyl’s “soft, rolled off, frequency limited top end”.

The Shibata stylus features a very small horizontal contact area and a wider vertical one. It can better trace the grooves, particularly the inner ones where the wavelengths get “scrunched” due to smaller groove radii. The Shibata produces less record wear too.

But the stylus profile requires careful SRA setting to get good sonic results and low Intermodulation Distortion (IM), so it should only be used on tone arms that allow you to adjust VTA/SRA and only if you are willing to go the “extra mile” during set-up. (yes, it was FM encoded)
The Ortofon 2m Black LVB cartridge I have uses the Shibata stylus.
 

EJ3

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The greatest cartridge ever made, and bandwidth to spare.
It's quite interesting as it is not a MC but an MM (and the top tier of SHURES (the Beryllium cantilevered ones [never seen a MC from them] was the distant but next best thing).
 

atmasphere

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A 1k resistor represents about 4nV/rt Hz of noise density. So for an MC of 10R (a typical order of magnitude), the intrinsic input noise will drop to 0.4nV/rt Hz. That's the equivalent input noise of a perfect preamp.

Do you have spectra of a silent groove in one of these masters playing versus just the cartridge off the disc? That would be good evidence and technically interesting.
I don't. But its easy to hear the difference: when playing the laquer the surface noise is inaudible, so the noise of the playback electronics is all you hear until the music starts. That isn't the case with LPs, although as I mentioned before the projects we did with QRP were fantastic in how quiet they were- they had a lot in common with the lacquers.
To say the media is great but the playback sucks is accurate but it doesn't matter, the playback is what you get and so no matter how great the media can be in it's quiescent pressed form that's not really the argument. The argument is what performance we get at our ears from LP's, not as it sits in it's sleeve on the shelf. Talking about the latter is moot to the discussion.
To be clear, what I said was the limitations of LP seem to mostly be caused by the playback apparatus. I gave some solutions too: use a strain gauge cartridge; failing that use a phono section that isn't perturbed by RFI at its input (if using LOMC cartridge, such a phono section will not sound any different if a 'cartridge loading' resistor is used). Also proper setup at which most people fail.
I am having much difficulties agreeing with this statement... beyond the chicken/egg dilemma it poses.
I am more inclined to think that the media is flawed; while the playback 'system' is trying to compensate for the many physical limitations of the media.
Would you be able to explain your statement in respect to the following LP media deficiencies issues?
Longevity/Wear? RIAA curves? ChannelSeparation? Inner/Outer groove sonic differences? Lower Octave space limitations?
Longevity/wear is a function of care in playback and how well the cartridge tracks. If the arm is unable to properly track the cartridge the LP might be damaged in only a few plays. But if the cartridge is competently tracking, the LP can last for many years.

Cutter heads are matched at the factory to their electronics and custom equalized on that account. Then the RIAA pre-emphasis is applied. Errors in the RIAA curve are thus in the phono preamp section and this has been well documented over the past 50 years or so. If you obtain an inverse RIAA network for testing this is insanely easy to document!

The cutter employs feedback windings in tandem with a 30dB feedback amplifier; IOW it has 30dB of feedback at all frequencies. This is done to control resonance in the cutter and also to insure channel separation. Its quite effective! If recording on one channel only, when viewing the groove through the microscope you can see that one side of the groove is perfectly smooth. You might wonder how it could be possible to measure cartridge channel separation, if you think this one through you will see its not chicken and egg at all.

Since the introduction of variable groove spacing, the limitations of the inner grooves really isn't a thing any more than it is for tape near the end of the reel. What is a thing is that a lot of radial tracking arms are compromised in their ability to track the inner grooves (mostly due to poor setup of the cartridge in the arm). The cutter head doesn't change how it cuts the groove when it gets near the end of the LP! The same information that is possible in the outer grooves is also possible and present in the inner grooves with no loss of bandwidth. This is one of those annoying mythological tropes steeped for decades that simply needs to die. You just need a better tonearm to extract inner groove information. Its a garbage in garbage out thing. Use junk, expect junky results. The lower octave is limited by the cartridge/arm mechanical resonance as I mentioned earlier. The cutter head and its electronics have bandwidth below this limit (IOW below 7 Hz).

You can see that these are all playback issues- they don't exist on the record side.

Like any digital, the LP is limited in what it can manifest by the playback apparatus. We should not see measurable differences between DACs but we do and its no surprise that we hear differences with them too. IMO/IME there is a prejudice thing that comes from a lack of understanding how the LP process actually works. As I mentioned earlier a lot of my mythological notions (a lot of which I've seen expressed in this thread) died a horrible death after I started running the lathe.

Again, not saying the LP is better. I am saying its not nearly as bad as its been made out to be on this thread. One thing I've been wanting to do for a while is to use a class D amplifier with the cutter. A self oscillating class D amp would be inherently more stable in the system and also even lower distortion.
 

atmasphere

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But the stylus profile requires careful SRA setting to get good sonic results and low Intermodulation Distortion (IM), so it should only be used on tone arms that allow you to adjust VTA/SRA and only if you are willing to go the “extra mile” during set-up. (yes, it was FM encoded)
Getting the SRA to the exact angle of the LP is impossible. 92 degrees is only an approximation. The reason for this is that the cutting stylus only lasts about 10 hours before it can no longer cut a silent groove (as it wears you have to increase the stylus temperature to compensate). When its replaced, the cutter head has to be removed from the lathe for installation and then reinstalled and set up. The new stylus is always a bit different and the prior settings might not be correct. So the engineer does not look for a 92 degree cutting angle- he looks for the settings at which the stylus cuts a silent groove. This might be 91 or 93 degrees- who knows. It depends on the stylus itself.

This does not stop a Shibata from working though.
 

NormB

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I'm a member of a couple of reddit audiophile threads where people post pictures of their rigs and most of the time they include turntables and every time I see one my mind is blown because I outgrew vinyl only a few years after buying my first CD player in the '80's. Back then I had a tape deck, a turntable and a CD player but once I heard digital I knew they was no going back yet people en mass are and I find it baffling given all the benefits of youtube. The first and most obvious benefit is, it's free. Secondly, youtube has an almost endless catalog of music, with the original music video, the karaoke versions of songs, live versions and videos that include the lyrics. Thirdly, the convenience of simply clicking my mouse a few times and opening up a world of music is pretty alluring. I always wondered about the sound quality though so I bought a CD a few years ago to compare youtube to CD and couldn't hear any difference. LP's on the other hand can only be played one at a time, require time, money and effort to obtain and play and also require money and effort to maintain and as your collection of LP's grows it obviously becomes more expensive and takes up space-something youtube doesn't yet most reddit audiophiles are flocking to them

Does the vinyl renaissance make sense to you because it sure doesn't to me

Think of it as silver/gold compared to digital/crypto currency.

Around 1995 I was working at Walter Reed AMC in DC and had discussions with the IT guys there. The computer/data room was HUGE, air-conditioned to the point everyone wore seaters/hoodies/coats. Backup 'puter was at Naval Hospital in Bethesda. IT teams would switch servers periodically to do backups, and backups of backups were a constant, ongoing thing.

"Bitrot" they called it. Data had to be updated and backed up continuously as even tapes lost data just sitting around. They told me the MAXIMUM lifespan expected of CD-ROMS was 10-20 years as, being a ten-year old technology at that point (plus a few years), they were showing CD's were going to be unretrievable in another ten years.

I dunno, I have my first CD bought in 1984 (IIRC - I got a scholarship cash award while at UCSD for undergrad and immediately bought a CD player), Dave Grusin's "Mountain Dance" and it seems to play just fine. Copyright 1981, bought in '84, I JUST downloaded to my iMac and it plays just fine. It's almost FORTY years old. Mfd in Japan, so I THINK some of the fears about data loss are dependent on quality of materials.

Just did the same with King Crimson's "Three of a Perfect Pair" from 1984, too. Made in West Germany. No data loss that Apple's Music can detect or not correct for but I still think the LP (Steven Wilson's remix) sounds better.

That said, I have hundreds of records (12, 10 and 7") from as early as the 1930's and they play fine. Sure, the vinyl (or bakelite/lacquer) breaks down over time, is a little static-ey, but listen to "Hot Jazz Saturday Night sometime when Rob Bamberger's spinning discs from the 1910's-20's sometime. Sure, lots of snap-crackle-pop, but will digital sources still be playable in 100 years?

I'll take vinyl. Still sounds better to my ears anyway.

And I keep silver and gold (and brass/lead and steel) handy just in case, too.
 

pseudoid

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You can see that these are all playback issues- they don't exist on the record side.
No!
As I recall, when the CD RedBook was introduced at 16bit/44.1kHz, it was not the 'best' for audio reproduction but it was what the capabilities of the technology was at that era.
Please recall that the some of the first CD pressings were not even 16bit-depth due to technology shortcomings.

The RedBook could have easily made the standard to be 24bit @ much higher sampling rates (re:44.1kHz << Nyquist) and then blame the recording/playback hardware (manufacturers) for not being able to produce DACs which did not exist to be able to encode/decode data.
Again, the main limitations of LP is not the media- its the playback.
I am fully aware of the 5TimeConstants required to charge to 98% but saying the word "again" four more times does not make anything to be a fact.
 

captainbeefheart

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Again, the main limitations of LP is not the media- its the playback.

The media has a major problem with storing the entire audible frequency range hence the RIAA eq. The pre-emphasis introduced in the cutting wouldn't sound so great would it? That alone makes the media storage imperfect not taking into consideration the playback which is the basis of your argument. So as it sits in it's quiescent form might be "low noise" but who care about noise when all you hear is treble?
 

jbattman1016

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(Opinion not fact based)
With LP, it's MORE expensive to get good playback sound, but with digital (CDs/Streaming/etc.) it's more affordable to get great playback... but each have their rabbit holes
 

pseudoid

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(Opinion not fact based)
With LP, it's MORE expensive to get good playback sound, but with digital (CDs/Streaming/etc.) it's more affordable to get great playback... but each have their rabbit holes
LPs most definitely were the "best horse in the glue factory" during that era. No doubt!
Rather than making excuses for that media's shortcomings, I prefer to finger-point at the villains.
Not Edison; not Grammophon; not WesternElectric; but maybe Columbia; and most definitely RCA/Victor-ola that sucked us into that mess.
If my memory serves me correctly.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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One thing I've been wanting to do for a while is to use a class D amplifier with the cutter. A self oscillating class D amp would be inherently more stable in the system and also even lower distortion.
Is the cutter head driven by a voltage source amplifier or current source amplifier? Just curious since in tape machines, record tape heads are driven from a current source so the changing inductive reactance doesn't affect frequency response.
 
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