Chord DAVE Measurements (With MScaler) by GoldenSound

[Killingbeans]

This is how I picture the situation (sorry for the snark):

"When I bought this product, the upgrade in audio quality was so blindingly obvious that I almost couldn't believe it! The neighbor's wife came over and told me that she had heard it in her kitchen and had told her husband to buy whetever it was she was hearing, or she'd divorce him. It's amazing how this company has pushed the technology of audio reproduction light-years ahead of its competition. $X000 is a steal! Imagine how heavenly a $X0000 version of this design must sound!

What? You want me to test the audibility? No, no, no! Those tests will mask the differences. It's subtle. I'm on a quest for perfection and I'd gladly pay $X000 to get the additional 0.0001% performance. I have a TRUE appreciation of music, and without that minute subtlety, the sound becomes pure agony to me. Those misguided tests won't be able to convey that."

Do you understand why I'm confused?

And yes, there's no perfect test, and there's no perfect interpretation of test results... but come on you guys.

Sometimes you don't need a teaspoon to shovel shit.

 

[garbz]

£9000 for a device with a power supply connected with crimped spade terminals?,

Facepalm is right. FYI crimped insulated spade lugs are objectively the "right" way to connect to the IEC outlet. Crimping spade lugs are more reliable, less susceptible to damage, insulated so if they come loose they are objectively safer, they don't result in a heat effected zone, provide limited strain relief, and above all are the correct connector to mate with the socket.

Anyone who has done an electrical engineering degree learns two practical things: how to solder, and more importantly when not to.

 

[amirm]

Ah, I dont think I'd be happy with a test like that. You need to be fully relaxed imo to get the best results. This is why music sounds best is in dark room with no background noise. You can be fully immersed and your brain isnt focusing on other things. I do think it's important to make the listening tests as stress-free as possible. In this respect I agree with Rob Watt. You need to understand how the brain processes music - if there are other things going on distracting it less brain power is used for the listening.

I passed that test in daylight in our living room with TV running in the background! As to Rob Watts, he has no qualifications in "how the brain works." Anytime you see someone like him say that, you can ignore what comes after that.

 

[BlinkDL]

FYI I measured my DAVE using Cosmos ADC The performance is quite decent (not D90SE level though lol) and without artifacts.

Chord DAVE measured by Cosmos ADC

Hi guys. I measured my Chord DAVE using Cosmos ADC (grade A). Cosmos is set to 4.5Vrms in both XLR and RCA measurements. Note DAVE has a HF filter which affects the FR and probably cause the rise of IMD after 18kHz. I will remeasure it later without HF filter. DAVE has higher noise and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DSJR]

I heard the full Chord shebang (M-Scaler in and out and perceived what I heard as level differences rather than 'better sound' with the M-Scaler built in - the Chord rep was doing the dem and held the i-Pad and remote control, so no idea what he was doing) and thought the overall sound very good in a highly 'disciplined' way. There will be people able to afford this stuff and the story it tells, but got to say RW knows how to play his (usually lay) audience with a mix of sound science and audiophoolery as it all sounds so plausible.

 

[Eskamobob1]

EDIT: I stand corrected. see response below. I'll leave comment for posterity's sake

He said he would proceed with the test regardless. He never did.

That's not quite true. The thread was posted above for anyone interested. Yall discussed what would actualy make it valid proof. GO wanted to simply statisticaly accurately pick appart separate dacs with similar measurements while you wanted him to reproduce his "tasting notes" (of sorts) blind. As the discussion broke down th3 test never happened. TL;DR is still that he didn't record a blind test but I think the background that a set of conditions for one were never finalized matters here

Honestly though, I think the whole thing is kinda moot. Ultimately we have a good idea of dave+hms performance and seeing as it's not bleeding edge I don't think a small difference due to different setups realy matters a whole ton. Plus, to be frank, even with 50+ hours on a Dave + Blu mk2 I didn't think it was particularly good anyways even before I saw messurmenrts

 

[amirm]

That's not quote true. The thread was posted above for anyone interested. Yall discussed what would actualy make it valid proof. GO wanted to simply statisticaly accurately pick appart separate dacs with similar measurements while you wanted him to reproduce his "tasting notes" (of sorts) blind. As the discussion broke down th3 test never happened. TL;DR is still that he didn't record a blind test but I think the background that a set of conditions for one were never finalized matters here

No. When we broke down with our discussions, he said he would proceed with the testing on his own anyway:

That was nearly a year ago. Should have been plenty of time to conduct this test which he had so much confidence in passing.

 

[Eskamobob1]

No. When we broke down with our discussions, he said he would proceed with the testing on his own anyway:

View attachment 197662

That was nearly a year ago. Should have been plenty of time to conduct this test which he had so much confidence in passing.

I stand corrected. I edited my previous comment. I must have missed that message when the whole thing wad going down

 

[srkbear]

I posted an objection to the price point of the DAVE on Head-Fi yesterday, specifically in regard to its increasing obsolescence, just above average measurements, lack of balanced headphone outputs, and arguably inferior performance compared to newer and far less costly options, without ever mentioning ASR once.

I was immediately pounced on as an “ASR Elitist”, poisoning their well with ASR’s unholy mission to hawk Chinese DACs, being an sheepish believer in measurements who doesn’t recognize that measurements miss intangible functions of DACs such as soundstage, imaging, warmth and “realism”. The onslaught of withering dismantling of my character, intellectual prowess, insight and ear for quality was relentless. I was actually accused of being an elitist, on a Chord DAVE forum!

The amount of unmitigated garbage, rejection of evidence, hawking of snake oil and name-dropping of outlandishly priced gear such as Bakoon, Danacables, and PSAudio to susceptible prospective buyers over there is just soul crushing—an echo chamber like nothing else I’ve seen. One guy referred to my Topping D90se as a toy. I seriously regret jumping into that bay of sharks—never again.

 

[AlephAlpha001]

I posted an objection to the price point of the DAVE on Head-Fi yesterday, specifically in regard to its increasing obsolescence, just above average measurements, lack of balanced outputs, and arguably inferior performance compared to newer and far less costly options, without ever mentioning ASR once.

I was immediately pounced on as an “ASR Elitist”, poisoning their well with ASR’s unholy mission to hawk Chinese DACs, being an sheepish believer in measurements who doesn’t recognize that measurements miss intangible functions of DACs such as soundstage, imaging, warmth and “realism”. The onslaught of withering dismantling of my character, intellectual prowess, insight and ear for quality was relentless. I was actually accused of being an elitist, on a Chord DAVE forum!

The amount of unmitigated garbage, rejection of evidence, hawking of snake oil and name-dropping of outlandishly priced gear such as Bakoon, Danacables, and PSAudio to susceptible prospective buyers over there is just soul crushing—an echo chamber like nothing else I’ve seen. One guy referred to my Topping D90se as a toy. I seriously regret jumping into that bay of sharks—never again.

Bbbbbut they have to amortize the tooling for the case it comes in.

Yeah... that's Head-Fi. I like reading it sometimes to while away the hours. It's entertainment. Filler.

 

[srkbear]

Bbbbbut they have to amortize the tooling for the case it comes in.

Yeah... that's Head-Fi. I like reading it sometimes to while away the hours. It's entertainment. Filler.

I never could get them to explain how a DAC, which serves to reproduce the most accurate facsimile of the original analogue master from a bunch of ones and zeros, could possibly influence factors such as soundstage—and I’m still trying to grasp what “realism” is. They kept insisting that the DAVE certainly does influence the soundstage and sound signature, and I said yes of course it does, not as much as headphones do by any means but because it’s not just a DAC—it’s a preamp and amp as well! That’s when things totally went to hell.

Eventually about six guys (always guys) piled on, all of whom had maintained the badge of “Headphoneus Supremous”—the sixth of whom declared the Topping D90se and A90 as as “toys” in comparison to his $9,000 Bakoon setup. Once he brought up his Tara Labs active Focal Utopia headphone cable, I had to leave to go throw up.

The idea that ASR is secretly getting kickbacks for hawking Chinese gear is a new one to me. I feel like I need security detail now.

 

[Music1969]

I posted an objection to the price point of the DAVE on Head-Fi yesterday, specifically in regard to its increasing obsolescence, just above average measurements, lack of balanced outputs

It has XLR outputs

 

[Arnas]

I never could get them to explain how a DAC, which serves to reproduce the most accurate facsimile of the original analogue master from a bunch of ones and zeros, could possibly influence factors such as soundstage—and I’m still trying to grasp what “realism” is. They kept insisting that the DAVE certainly does influence the soundstage and sound signature, and I said yes of course it does, not as much as headphones do by any means but because it’s not just a DAC—it’s a preamp and amp as well! That’s when things totally went to hell.

Eventually about six guys (always guys) piled on, all of whom had maintained the badge of “Headphoneus Supremous”—the sixth of whom declared the Topping D90se and A90 as as “toys” in comparison to his $9,000 Bakoon setup. Once he brought up his Tara Labs active Focal Utopia headphone cable, I had to leave to go throw up.

The idea that ASR is secretly getting kickbacks for hawking Chinese gear is a new one to me. I feel like I need security detail now.

Guys with huge fragile egos will never learn, they think more money spent = better sound . Good thing i found this website or i would have spended more money on overpriced distortion machines. I always liked sabre dacs and clean amps and now i know i liked it because they are low noise and low distortion.
P.S i think they like External power supplies on Dave because it can introduce more noise and thus lower thd+ noise
Couldnt that be the case Amir? Maybe Audiophools like more distortion?

 

[srkbear]

It has XLR outputs

It has balanced audio outputs. Not headphone outputs.

 

[Jimbob54]

The biggest problem the Dave has (its not lack of balanced headphone out, it has plenty of power for most cans):

Dave spec (many £000)

HEADPHONE OUTPUT

1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300Ω (154mW) 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33Ω (1.4w)

RME ADI 2 (less than £1000)

300 Ohm

33 Ohm

 

[srkbear]

The biggest problem the Dave has (its not lack of balanced headphone out, it has plenty of power for most cans):

Dave spec (many £000)

HEADPHONE OUTPUT

1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300Ω (154mW) 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33Ω (1.4w)

RME ADI 2 (less than £1000)

300 Ohm

33 Ohm

Yes, clearly it’s its measurements (and its near 8 year old technology) that fail to justify its exorbitant price tag. I only mentioned balanced headphone outputs because many modern DACs and amps offer a pentaconn or XLR headphone jack, and that’s what I use for my cans. I’m aware that the contentious debate about whether balanced headphone outputs offer benefits beyond power increases by eliminating a common ground path is the stuff of another topic.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, clearly it’s its measurements (and its near 8 year old technology) that fail to justify its exorbitant price tag. I only mentioned balanced headphone outputs because many modern DACs and amps offer a pentaconn or XLR headphone jack, and that’s what I use for my cans. I’m aware that the contentious debate about whether balanced headphone outputs offer benefits beyond power increases by eliminating a common ground path is the stuff of another topic.

Yup- its anywhere between $9500 and $9000 overpriced depending on what the current price of a few lbs of well machined aluminium is. I could just about see Chord adding a 4.4 to some devices like this, but they will never add a 4 pin XLR (or if they did, would hide it round back).

Though my understanding is that the output impedance of the rear XLR is so low you could convert them to balanced headphone jack of choice and go from there if not in use.

 

[srkbear]

Yup- its anywhere between $9500 and $9000 overpriced depending on what the current price of a few lbs of well machined aluminium is. I could just about see Chord adding a 4.4 to some devices like this, but they will never add a 4 pin XLR (or if they did, would hide it round back).

Though my understanding is that the output impedance of the rear XLR is so low you could convert them to balanced headphone jack of choice and go from there if not in use.

You’re far more advanced than I with the physics on this topic, but the solution you mentioned would be a retrofit option, which is why I ain’t gonna pay $13,000 for that thing over affordable options that sound demonstrably superior. If there is any piece of gear that meets criteria for a toy, aesthetically and otherwise, the DAVE would certainly be on my shortlist.

There are rumors of a DAVE 2.0 on the horizon, and perhaps they’ll adopt some more “contemporary” features, who knows. And I’m sure it’ll be the talk of the town, and will attract even more status-seeking enthusiasts willing to accede to even more stratospheric price points. And they’ll continue to look down their noses at those of us here who endeavor to expose the truth about whether the hard data justifies those costs.

The effusive claims made over on Head-Fi about the rapturous sounds coming from these luxurious offerings from Chord, PSAudio, dCS and their ilk are seductive, I must say. I have fallen prey to them in the past and there’s evidence of it accumulating dust in my closet. But I’m still convinced that most of these high-rollers appreciate ownership of these “premium” brands more for how they impress their dinner party guests than for what is coming from their speakers. Thank god I found this site to dodge the hype.

 

[MaxBuck]

I guess I don't understand the controversy about this thing.

I'd never buy one. But its performance is likely to be audibly perfect, it has an idiosyncratic design that may appeal to many people, and there's no indication that the company owner is a vile human. Aside from its price, I see no reason to get bent out of shape about it.

 

[srkbear]

I guess I don't understand the controversy about this thing.

I'd never buy one. But its performance is likely to be audibly perfect, it has an idiosyncratic design that may appeal to many people, and there's no indication that the company owner is a vile human. Aside from its price, I see no reason to get bent out of shape about it.

“Audibly perfect?” It’s already been proven more than once via rigorous evidence on this site that Chord’s idiosyncratic DAC designs are anything but perfect, and measure inferiorly to newer DACs that cost less than 10% of what the DAVE does. I’m not sure we’re bent out of shape so much as dismayed that Chord swindles the hard-earned cash from unwitting buyers entranced by their marketing schemes. That may not make them vile humans per se, but it certainly suggests the motives of greedy, bad actors in the business sense.

It seems to me that one of the salient aims of this site is to expose such felonious hypes to sunlight—it is the obfuscating sciency talk spouting from the mouths of self-knighted royalty like Rob Watts and Paul McGowan that fools folks into believing that there is such a thing as “perfect” performance to begin with. I know the collective efforts of the very smart folks here sure saved me a ton of wasted cash, and steered me towards a setup that performs as perfectly as I could have hoped.

And if I sound a little testy, please be aware that I just got chased out of town by torch-wielding angry villagers over at Head-Fi’s DAVE thread for meekly suggesting that the piece might no longer live up to its price.

*Whew*. Time to go get centered in the comforts of my cheap, imperfect Chinese DAC. Peace!