Chord DAVE Measurements (With MScaler) by GoldenSound

[mccririck]

I'm sorry, I've already seen that video. Explain your problem with it.

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir, first of all thanks for your great contribution to the audio scene and for providing this platform, I'm personally grateful!
This short statement however reminds me of some older work colleagues, who liked to tell off young employees because they had no experience yet. I feel this is not a respectful approach, assuming that someone is incompetent without opening the door for a thorough technical conversation.

It wasn't meant to be respectful. His history with me doesn't afford me extending such to him.

And I didn't say he is incompetent. I just pointed out that he doesn't know a specific thing about Audio Precision which took me a while to figure out. Being new to this, he hasn't run into it yet.

The typical retort against my measurements not showing perfect results for gear has been, "why didn't he contact the manufacturer before posting them." Did he contact Chord before publishing his?

 

[B&WTube]

I have listened to Rob Watt's lectures on these products- his methodology makes so much sense. He has also spent tremendous time determining where errors make the differences, and it is almost unbelievable how the tiniest of deviations (that should NOT be perceptible) are actually noticeable.

I am actually expecting some tremendous new products coming from Rob. In his latest lecture at CanJam, it sounds like he spent the 2 years of COVID lockdown discovering a lot of new areas for improvement (although I admit he is good at hyping his products). I am excited to see what is to come... Even though it would be very expensive (for me)- I would buy the Dave and M-Scaler combo at 50% discount

 

[arthur1260]

It wasn't meant to be respectful. His history with me doesn't afford me extending such to him.

And I didn't say he is incompetent. I just pointed out that he doesn't know a specific thing about Audio Precision which took me a while to figure out. Being new to this, he hasn't run into it yet.

The typical retort against my measurements not showing perfect results for gear has been, "why didn't he contact the manufacturer before posting them." Did he contact Chord before publishing his?

Understood, I wasn’t aware there have been discussions that lead to this. Too bad though, would be quite helpful to the community if people would collaborate and share experiences. Let’s hope he figures out what he doesn’t know!

 

[Soniclife]

He has also spent tremendous determining where errors make the differences, and it is almost unbelievable how the tiniest of deviations (that should NOT be perceptible) are actually noticeable.

Where/how have these perceptible differences been demonstrated?

 

[KSTR]

Too bad though, would be quite helpful to the community if people would collaborate and share experiences. Let’s hope he figures out what he doesn’t know!

The issue that I'm seeing here is that we don't know how GS actually conducted (or iterated) that specific measurement and if/how he checked its dependability.

Normally, when you encounter a suspicious measurement result, good engineering practice would be:
- full reset and repeat (restart computers/machines/hardware, unplug everything and start from scratch, literally from a clean desk).
- if the issue persists -- even after changing some parameters --, double check with alternative measurement hardware. In case of a DAC measurement one could simply use any good ADC/DAC soundcard interface (some RME, MOTU, etc) and check whether the spike pattern appears again.
- if it does, it can be assumed to be real. Otherwise one would contact the community in some form (AP support, AP user forums, ASR, DIYaudio, etc) for help. Either that resolves the issue but if if doesn't you have conflicting measurements and therefore shouldn't publish the data, or at least do with a big disclaimer about dependability.

Setup and operation of very complex measurement gear like an AP rig is full of pitfalls, though APx series is quite a bit better in its user interface than System Two series.

 

[amirm]

Where/how have these perceptible differences been demonstrated?

I asked him at one of his talks if his tests were blind. He said no because they are stressful! There is no validity in anything he says regarding audibility.

 

[Killingbeans]

He has also spent tremendous determining where errors make the differences, and it is almost unbelievable how the tiniest of deviations (that should NOT be perceptible) are actually noticeable.

I smell an emperor with no new clothes on. Not that I blame him. It's a pitfall I'd struggle to avoid myself.

The Dave seems competent. Not $15K competent. More like $150 competent (as a DAC). But if you love the design language, the story and the interface, then who am I to stop you

 

[mccririck]

I asked him at one of his talks if his tests were blind. He said no because they are stressful! There is no validity in anything he says regarding audibility.

But have you conducted blind tests?

 

[Killingbeans]

@mccririck

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mccririck]

@mccririck

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No need to post that. I only asked as if he hasn't conducted blind test experiments how can he know he is correct? He can only assume from his knowledge of physics.

 

[Killingbeans]

Fair enough:

A bit about your host....

This is a bit about your host, Amir Majidimehr. I am writing this as to give more context to people reading my technical reviews and measurements. I have realized that without this context, many assume I am yet another blogger spitting out graphs. That is very true but let’s see if we can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mccririck]

Fair enough:

A bit about your host....

This is a bit about your host, Amir Majidimehr. I am writing this as to give more context to people reading my technical reviews and measurements. I have realized that without this context, many assume I am yet another blogger spitting out graphs. That is very true but let’s see if we can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Would need more information on the blind testing. Did it use experienced audiophiles or random subjects?

 

[pkane]

Would need more information on the blind testing. Did it use experienced audiophiles or random subjects?

Who is an "experienced audiophile"? The one who hears night-and-day differences when swapping power cables and using cable lifters made of different wood?

 

[Killingbeans]

Did it use experienced audiophiles or random subjects?

Didn't we already beat that poor horse in another thread?

 

[Mnyb]

If you jump off a 4 story building and get hurt , you don’t need to try every other 4 story building in existence and new ones in the future ?

Likewise with audio products with flat frequency response within human hearing almost no distortion and very low noise ? The extreme similarities between products that fulfill this is staggering.

 

[Gradius]

Who is an "experienced audiophile"? The one who hears night-and-day differences when swapping power cables and using cable lifters made of different wood?

Most probably.

 

[B&WTube]

I smell an emperor with no new clothes on. Not that I blame him. It's a pitfall I'd struggle to avoid myself.

The Dave seems competent. Not $15K competent. More like $150 competent (as a DAC). But if you love the design language, the story and the interface, then who am I to stop you

I did say he knows how to sell himself, lol. Admittedly, I have never heard the Dave+MScaler combo, but in addition to liking the methodology, there have been enough ppl whose opinions I respect validate how good it is. Regardless of the goodness, $12.5k + $4.5k is just bananas. I have argued on YouTube videos that Dave should be about a third the price it is…It’s also a lot of money for gear that looks like it came out of my 5 year olds toy box.

 

[B&WTube]

I asked him at one of his talks if his tests were blind. He said no because they are stressful! There is no validity in anything he says regarding audibility.

Oh, that’s is not only bothersome, it also doesn’t make any sense.

 

[BDWoody]

...and it is almost unbelievable how the tiniest of deviations (that should NOT be perceptible) are actually noticeable.

Almost unbelievable?