• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

Rate this product:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 96 31.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 116 37.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 63 20.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 31 10.1%

  • Total voters
    306

GalZohar

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2021
Messages
449
Likes
218
EQ is applied in digital domain so it shouldn’t change SINAD if used with digital source (not RCA IN where it does ADC).
Graphs are comparable, but the differences seen probably won’t be audible.

The most audible and important difference I’m curious to hear is Audyssey XT32 vs Dirac Live room EQ. Complicated setup for a proper comparison, not sure if I want to take upon, even though I have a Denon X3500 at home for a while (in addition to RZ50)..

I don't refer to the EQ itself (as you said it's in the digital domain), but rather the digital circuits being engaged rather than bypassed. Of course it could have no/minimal effect, but as far as I understand this wasn't measured? I basically want to know how meaningful the SNR values of the amplifiers shown in these reviews are, for someone who doesn't use direct/pure modes.

Comparing Dirac to Audyssey is also something I'd love to see, but that is a separate topic, and can be done regardless of the AVR it's on (because the effects are supposedly much easier to measure than differences between amplifiers and DACs, although the resulting improvement in sound is more difficult to assess, but at least one can try to map subjective listening differences to measured differences).
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
I do think the RZ50 can be a good choice if use with one sub and external amp, but but it's measurement is nowhere near as good as the AVR-X3700H (preamp mode) for normal use when most of the time the pre out voltage will be well below 1 V.

At 0.6 V, the Denon's pre out SINAD would be almost 10 dB better.
The Onkyo also did much worse in the frequency dependency test, with 7 to 8 dB lower in SINAD.
No idea how its IMD would perform as Amir did not measure it.

Personally I don't think the higher THD+N would make an audible difference, just want to mention that as a buyer beware thing, that even if used as prepro only, it's test results are not nearly as good as Denon's before the DAC change.

index.php
index.php



index.php
index.php
That would depend on your power amp voltage sensitivity.... a lot of power amps use the pro input levels of 1.4V.... in which case the Denon is less than ideal.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
EQ is applied in digital domain so it shouldn’t change SINAD if used with digital source (not RCA IN where it does ADC).
Graphs are comparable, but the differences seen probably won’t be audible.

The most audible and important difference I’m curious to hear is Audyssey XT32 vs Dirac Live room EQ. Complicated setup for a proper comparison, not sure if I want to take upon, even though I have a Denon X3500 at home for a while (in addition to RZ50)..
Because of the nature of REQ, results will differ depending on speakers and room.... and from the wide pool of experiences with people who have had both... there are cases where users have reported Audyssey XT32 having better results - but over the majority of instances, people are reporting Dirac as having the better subjective results. (I'm not sure there are definitive objective measures of relevance...)

Reality is, the only way to know for your particular use case, is to compare within your system and room - and most users won't be doing that.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,679
Likes
241,148
Location
Seattle Area
I agree with @Massimo though-why is that on the chart?
It is there because the standard excuse is that AVRs/AVPs process audio so can never do very well in this regard. I show those DSP products to demonstrate that they can do so much better. And also, to have a target for them to strive to.
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
The holdup here is DRM. Multi-Channel DAC's exist, cheap high performing stereo DAC's obviously exist. It's decoding the initial surround format and splitting it into 4-6 stereo PCM streams that's the problem. I'm honestly a little surprised that some enterprising person hasn't created a piggyback solution that would enable you to "clip on" a wiring harness at the right point in a budget AVR and get yourself there.

Yes, probably because you need an HDCP key to do it, and if you do anything at all that the HDMI Forum / Intel (DCP) doesn't like they will either sue you or get your chip vendor to stop selling you chips.
 

Keened

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
329
Likes
219
And where will the volume control be?
Same place, the original voltage reliant 'volume' would be placed in the setting as the voltage gain for people who need to tweak it. It makes no sense to expose that to the end user in the primary interface if it actively deteriorates sound quality. If there was no DSP available it would make sense since that would be the only way to adjust the quality the user actually wants: the relative sound pressure levels.
 

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,734
Likes
5,309
That would depend on your power amp voltage sensitivity.... a lot of power amps use the pro input levels of 1.4V.... in which case the Denon is less than ideal.

Are you talking about the Denon's graph only shows up to 2 V. If it is, it is only because Amir typically test pre outs to 2 V RCA, 4 V XLR but occasionally he would test to a higher voltage, such as the case of the RZ 50.

Here's one time he tested with higher voltage for an Denon, the X6700H, that has the same volume control and DAC ICs:

Note that Audioholics.com's Gene has also measured the lower model, the AVR-X3300W up to 4.5 Vrms unclipped (so he said). Again, I think while one measures much better, I do realize audibly speaking it could be a moot point under "normal" use conditions.

index.php
 

Flak

Senior Member
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
388
Likes
601
Also, keep in mind that comparing each others REQ on vs off FR graphs are interesting but I would not base on those to draw conclusions
That's correct... with reference to Dirac Live, and contrary to what is usually thought, the main purpose of the different non-MLP-measurement-positions is to find how the impulse responses change with position.
The subject is discussed in this document (starting on page 4) in the section about "THE FOURIER TRANSFORM AND THE CONCEPT OF FREQUENCY":
Also relevant on page 11 is the section about "SOME REFLECTIONS ARE GOOD, SOME BAD"

One reason for Dirac Live to use multiple measurements is to be able to know what is different between them and what is the same, in other words what should be corrected and what not.
In order to do this, averaging obviously isn’t the way to go. Early reflections can also be different across multiple points and in fact they often are, and if that is the case they shouldn't be dealt with.
Consider for example a first reflection on a sidewall. It will be different as you move sideways across the room. Note that the reflection itself will be basically the same but that’s beside the point, the important part is that such an early reflection interact differently with the direct wave as you move sideways.
The direct wave itself and the first reflection itself doesn’t really change, but how they interact changes as the total distance for the reflection changes, but the direct wave does not. That is a critical part for robust correction. Implicitly then, some things, like late reflections are guaranteed to change, and are also identified this way.
And this is all about phase correction so looking at the magnitude response only isn't sufficient.
 
Last edited:

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
Are you talking about the Denon's graph only shows up to 2 V. If it is, it is only because Amir typically test pre outs to 2 V RCA, 4 V XLR but occasionally he would test to a higher voltage, such as the case of the RZ 50.

Here's one time he tested with higher voltage for an Denon, the X6700H, that has the same volume control and DAC ICs:

Note that Audioholics.com's Gene has also measured the lower model, the AVR-X3300W up to 4.5 Vrms unclipped (so he said). Again, I think while one measures much better, I do realize audibly speaking it could be a moot point under "normal" use conditions.

index.php
No - sorry about the confusion - I was referring to the other test of the 3700 - where the pre outs were tested with the internal amplifiers on.
It clipped at 1.4V - whereas with the amplifiers off, it had plenty of headroom.

To me that would rule it out, as my power amps are pro/XLR input levels... so the signal required for Max/rated power out of the amps, is 1.4V RMS - with peaks out to around 2V or a smidge over.

Were I using my Quad 606 power amps, with signal input of 0.5V RMS for rated ouput - this would not be a concern... but with my current speakers, the Crown XLS's sound better.

In any case, this is a known weakness of the Denon design - measure here.

For the end user that uses solely external amps, - not an issue. For the user that uses solely the internal amps, also not a problem, but if you want to run a hybrid setup with external amps for the L/C/R and internal amps for surround/heights - then you need to think carefully - and potentially limit your choice of amps to ones that take an appropriately (low) signal level.

In the overall scheme of things - the 96db SINAD of the RZ50 is within the range I consider acceptable (would I like to see more/better? - sure... but we are definitely reaching past the limits of audibility in a domestic environment!) - whereas the V out being within the right range to mate with my power amps is an absolute requirement....

I have just finish a quick/rough installation of the RZ50's baby brother the Integra DRX 3.4 in my setup... the DIRAC REQ has made an immediately noticeable difference - detail in the midrange is immediately more obvious/clear, voices / dialogue are much easier to hear.

It has replaced a 2013 Integra DTR 70.4 powerhouse... which when new, cost more than double the price, weighs 30kg, has excellent amps - and the Audyssey never did a great job in either my previous home or current one.... (in both environments the AVR sounded best on its own without Audyssey engaged). - to be fair, the new "tunable" Audyssey might have resolved the issue.... or not. The new Integra looks small alongside the hulking mass of the old Receiver.... but it sounds better.

As a balancing act between affordability, and features, with more than adequate performance, I think the current Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer family are hitting the target dead center. At local pricing right now, the Denon X3700h is around 50% more expensive than the Onkyo... although there are indications that Onkyo is going to raise its prices. (Get them while their hot!?)

P.S. the X3700 was the only alternative I was seriously considering other than the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneers.... wanting to try Dirac, after my failures with Audyssey was key - but the preout voltage issue was also an important factor against it, in my case.
 

David338

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
11
Likes
3
Do I remember correctly that the RZ50 only has one sub out/control? Meaning you cannot adjust multiple subs differently.
 

f1shb0n3

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
326
Likes
498
Location
Seattle Area
Do I remember correctly that the RZ50 only has one sub out/control? Meaning you cannot adjust multiple subs differently.
Yes - only one configurable sub out on two RCAs. MiniDSP 2x4HD if you have more subs to be able to set individual delays and PEQ.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
Do I remember correctly that the RZ50 only has one sub out/control? Meaning you cannot adjust multiple subs differently.
Yes, that's right - there are two output connectors, but it is actually a single channel.

Some are hoping that there will be separate sub channels on the upcoming RZ70/90's - along with appropriate DIRAC software to manage them
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
First setup initial listening comments/Review of the RZ50's baby brother - Integra DRX 3.4... (not the NR7100, as it has no pre-outs...)

Replace the old Onkyo TX-SR876 beast... (140W/ch 50kg...)

Compare sound with no EQ to the old one with no EQ – lacks a bit of oomph... could be clearer in mid/highs.

Added my front power amps (Crown XLS2500 for L/R) – ahh there, that's better – yeah my speakers definitely need more grunt than the current AVR's provide... (that was one of the reasons I didn't get the bigger RZ50/5.1... the main reason would have been more power... and I have a better solution to that issue!)

Then ran DIRAC – using the phone app. – Easy and smooth process, no glitches, no problems.

Sound was immediately improved, midrange was definitely improved, a lot more clarity... vocals/voices and dialogue is a heck of a lot clearer without needing to crank things up.

Thumbs up for Dirac – much better than my Vintage Audyssey XT (SR876), or my later Audyssey XT32 (Integra DTR 70.4)

Will do further tuning with the PC app later... still not 100% happy with the bass – sounding a bit "plummy" – need to work on the mid bass.

Watched some Netflix (peaky binders) – overall system is definitely better – and there is room for further improvements with Dirac Target curve adjustments.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
Redid my Dirac Measurements - this time with the PC app, full 13 points.... - plummyness vanished!

Also downloaded the Harman Target curves (and NAD, and a few individual peoples...) - ended up using a Harman +4db with a slight roll off in the top end.... and experimenting with a slight presence lift.

My setup is now sounding better than it ever has -Dirac did the magic

I will be paying close attention to further Dirac developments.... and if something like Dirac Unison is released as part of the flagship models later this year, I may well upgrade ....
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
OK - I need some help from the collective brain trust...

The complex stuff I have under control, Dirac is tuned, system sounding great....

Now for the simple stuff....

I have a Sony X90H.... (and an Integra DRX 3.4) .

TV setup recognises the AVR as a receiver, and in the TV setup I have configured it to turn off the AVR when TV is turned off, and to turn on the TV when the AVR is turned on... (so in theory, the setup should be controllable either from the AVR remote, or the TV remote... no need for both)

In the AVR, I have enabled CEC....

What works and what doesn't
Turning on the TV, Turns on the AVR...., Turning off the TV turns off the AVR - all good from that end.
Turning on the AVR does not turn on the TV, and Turning off the AVR does not turn off the TV. (grrr)
Volume adjustment from the AVR displays on TV via AVR OSD
Volume adjustment from the TV displays on TV with both AVR OSD and TV OSD

Looking for help out there for how to best (properly) integrate TV/AVR....
 

dougi

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
845
Likes
767
Location
ACT, Australia
OK - I need some help from the collective brain trust...

The complex stuff I have under control, Dirac is tuned, system sounding great....

Now for the simple stuff....

I have a Sony X90H.... (and an Integra DRX 3.4) .

TV setup recognises the AVR as a receiver, and in the TV setup I have configured it to turn off the AVR when TV is turned off, and to turn on the TV when the AVR is turned on... (so in theory, the setup should be controllable either from the AVR remote, or the TV remote... no need for both)

In the AVR, I have enabled CEC....

What works and what doesn't
Turning on the TV, Turns on the AVR...., Turning off the TV turns off the AVR - all good from that end.
Turning on the AVR does not turn on the TV, and Turning off the AVR does not turn off the TV. (grrr)
Volume adjustment from the AVR displays on TV via AVR OSD
Volume adjustment from the TV displays on TV with both AVR OSD and TV OSD

Looking for help out there for how to best (properly) integrate TV/AVR....
I think that is normal. My Yamaha AVR does the same. Other devices can control the AVR OK (turn it on, switch inputs, control volume), but the AVR cannot turn the other devices on. Volume adjsutment indication the same behaviour as you have..
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
I think that is normal. My Yamaha AVR does the same. Other devices can control the AVR OK (turn it on, switch inputs, control volume), but the AVR cannot turn the other devices on. Volume adjsutment indication the same behaviour as you have..
That is annoying.... the old Onkyo remotes could be programmed with a TV brand #, and then they had basic TV controls on the same remote (Power, Vol, channel and Input) - the current one doesn't! - and I really don't want 2 remotes (and I didn't particularly want to have to purchase a universal...)

The TV interface appears to imply that it is capable of receiving a "turn on" signal over HDMI the source.... but what devices are capable of sending this signal is unclear!

Seems like basic stuff...
 

f1shb0n3

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
326
Likes
498
Location
Seattle Area
Looking for help out there for how to best (properly) integrate TV/AVR....
I've been having similar problems with LG C1 TV and Denon X3500 and same problems continued after replacing with Onkyo TX-RZ50. It seems to me that HDMI CEC has always been a mess and I hate it with passion. Tempted to dust off the old Logitech Harmony remote and turn off CEC completely..

What you can try that worked for me, advice I found in random forums - unplug from power both the TV and the AVR, disconnect all HDMI cables, wait 5 minutes, power on both, connect the TV-AVR cable and then the other HDMI one by one. Should be forcing an HDMI connection renegotiation or something, not sure, but it works for me. At least for awhile until it's all screwed up again.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
I've been having similar problems with LG C1 TV and Denon X3500 and same problems continued after replacing with Onkyo TX-RZ50. It seems to me that HDMI CEC has always been a mess and I hate it with passion. Tempted to dust off the old Logitech Harmony remote and turn off CEC completely..

What you can try that worked for me, advice I found in random forums - unplug from power both the TV and the AVR, disconnect all HDMI cables, wait 5 minutes, power on both, connect the TV-AVR cable and then the other HDMI one by one. Should be forcing an HDMI connection renegotiation or something, not sure, but it works for me. At least for awhile until it's all screwed up again.
I'll give that a try.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,163
Likes
2,428
So further interesting results...

Using the Smartphone control app, I can bring up the "TV remote" and turn the TV on....

This demonstrates that CEC is working correctly between AVR and TV, and that bidirectional "Turn on" is in fact working.

Now, how do I make that work via the normal remote, without needing a smartphone....?
 
Top Bottom