• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Sunfire Cinema Grand Review (5-channel Amp)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 106 59.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 57 31.8%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 10 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 6 3.4%

  • Total voters
    179

Everett T

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
695
Likes
581
The internal layout is not the best I have seen and that is weird.
Unbalanced was "Normal" at the time.

The meters and current outputs were, of course, gimmickry and I am surprised that the lamp still works after 20 years.

- Rich
Wondering if the bulbs were replaced while the recap occurred. Even my McIntosh bulbs would show noticable dim in just 5 years and another reason I won't be lifting hundreds of pounds of amps just to make their appearance better. Yes, yes, I know LEDs, but the money I save is far better spent.
 

audioholic63

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
73
Likes
98
It is rewarding after all these years to see an objective measurement of this amp. I bought one new in 1997 and used it in a number of configurations over the years. It finally gave up the ghost a couple of years ago and is confirmed as unrepairable by my local trusted tech and by Bill Flannery, the last standing dedicated tech for Sunfire products.

I was always attracted to the physical appearance of the amp. I expect the golden lit Joule meter was more Bob's obsession with tubes than a desire to provide any useful instrumentation. Look at the vacuum tube preamp from Sunfire, he uses mirrors to make the internal tube compliment look like it goes on for infinity.

I never had any issues with inrush current making my lights dim or the transformer groan. I did have a ground hum that I could never quell. The only solution was progressively less sensitive speakers. When I got to my 83db ET LFT8's it was as close to dead silent as it was going to get. Most of its service life was in 2ch, generally in a bi-amp for 4 of its channels, occasionally running the 5th for a passive sub. That is where it was when it finally died, but in HT running the front L+R and an SVS CS20 sub.

The "current" source taps were always a gimmick and again, some sort of sublimation of Bob's hot sweaty vacuum tube dreams. I used them on and off but always went back to the "voltage" source taps. Despite what some subjective reviewers have said about these amps (the original 300wpc stereo version and all of its descendants) I never found the sound objectionable under any conditions. I am gratified to know that despite the distortion figures these beasts did deliver the rated power.

As I look at the cold, dead hulk, sitting in my office, still unable to toss it in the e-waste pile at the county transfer station, I remain convinced that while it was not a bad purchase, had I bought a Bryston 4B at that same time it would still be running. Oh well. ;)
 

Everett T

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
695
Likes
581
It is rewarding after all these years to see an objective measurement of this amp. I bought one new in 1997 and used it in a number of configurations over the years. It finally gave up the ghost a couple of years ago and is confirmed as unrepairable by my local trusted tech and by Bill Flannery, the last standing dedicated tech for Sunfire products.

I was always attracted to the physical appearance of the amp. I expect the golden lit Joule meter was more Bob's obsession with tubes than a desire to provide any useful instrumentation. Look at the vacuum tube preamp from Sunfire, he uses mirrors to make the internal tube compliment look like it goes on for infinity.

I never had any issues with inrush current making my lights dim or the transformer groan. I did have a ground hum that I could never quell. The only solution was progressively less sensitive speakers. When I got to my 83db ET LFT8's it was as close to dead silent as it was going to get. Most of its service life was in 2ch, generally in a bi-amp for 4 of its channels, occasionally running the 5th for a passive sub. That is where it was when it finally died, but in HT running the front L+R and an SVS CS20 sub.

The "current" source taps were always a gimmick and again, some sort of sublimation of Bob's hot sweaty vacuum tube dreams. I used them on and off but always went back to the "voltage" source taps. Despite what some subjective reviewers have said about these amps (the original 300wpc stereo version and all of its descendants) I never found the sound objectionable under any conditions. I am gratified to know that despite the distortion figures these beasts did deliver the rated power.

As I look at the cold, dead hulk, sitting in my office, still unable to toss it in the e-waste pile at the county transfer station, I remain convinced that while it was not a bad purchase, had I bought a B&K ST-140 at that same time it would still be running. Oh well. ;)
B&K put out rock solid amps. Never understood the ATI acquisition only to kill them off a few years later.
 

Sonny1

Active Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
256
Likes
366
Thanks Amir, very interesting review. Assuming this amp was running properly, it looks like another “quality” product designed by Bob Carver. No wonder he sells his companies every few years and starts a new one. I remember wanting one of these back in the 90’s and I’m relieved I didn’t have they money to buy one.

Thank you to the guy who loaned the amp to Amir for testing. Hope you can get the buzzing addressed. If you sell it, I hope they don’t come across this thread.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,236
Location
Nashville
"In addition to normal speaker terminals, the front channels also have "current output." This just means that there is a 1 ohm resistor in series with the output. This causes voltage/power loss that is inversely proportional to the impedance of the speaker. As such, it varies the frequency response of the speaker so can have different tonality."

Another obvious attempt by Carver to mimic the "euphonic" tube tonality with a solid state design. VU meter which does nothing was probably added for the same reason.

Obviously not a great performer at all. OTOH, if all you want in an amp for your home theater is something that allows stuff to "blow up real good", and you can find this for cheap (like Goodwill cheep), not the worst way to stay in budget.

Or how about this: Quality amps for L-C-R channels, and one or two of these for surround, and/or Atmos height speakers?
 

NiagaraPete

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
2,199
Likes
1,962
Location
Canada
Ah perfect, another Carver myth put to rest. Gads his stuff was awful.
 

audioholic63

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
73
Likes
98
B&K put out rock solid amps. Never understood the ATI acquisition only to kill them off a few years later.
I did edit my post and changed the reference to Bryston, which was the brute force alternative I had been considering at the time. But B&K put out a lot of good stuff I thought, and I always liked that they were Buffalo based (college days...).
 

Everett T

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
695
Likes
581
I did edit my post and changed the reference to Bryston, which was the brute force alternative I had been considering at the time. But B&K put out a lot of good stuff I thought, and I always liked that they were Buffalo based (college days...).
Northern New York but out and still does some great amps.
 

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,240
Likes
9,373
I'm not big on the idea of buying vintage high end gear because the new stuff is so good, and the old stuff can break. Thank you @amirm
 

RichB

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
1,959
Likes
2,624
Location
Massachusetts
I'm not big on the idea of buying vintage high end gear because the new stuff is so good, and the old stuff can break. Thank you @amirm

I'll send a link when it goes up for sale :p

- Rich
 

Lambda

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
1,792
Likes
1,530

@ta240

Fair Points!
It seems unlikely to me that caning capacitors to modern ones with presumably more capacity and lower ESR/ESL would degrade the performance.
(if only bulk DC capacitors are changed and non in the signal part)
But it is not impossible at all!
 

Ajax

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
253
Likes
812
Location
Byron Bay, Australia
I agree. @amirm should hold off on doing any vintage reviews unless the review unit has been professionally serviced. Otherwise, he is just reviewing a particular example of an unknown state.
Hi Don.

How's that going to happen?

The whole ethos of ASR is that individuals (and manufacturers) send Amir gear to test for free. There is no cost to Amir, except for gear he purchases himself, and therefore no advertising. Meaning no pressure on Amir to give a favourable report/review.

From the ASR donation page;

"ASR relies on the goodwill of the visitors and members of the site to cover its expenses and enable testing of more products. There are no sponsors. No adds. No nothing."

Also, if the unit has been refurbished how do you know that the technician was competent and had a good understanding of the original designer's philosophy. My son is a motorbike enthusiast and will not buy a bike that has had modifications done for this reason. I'm an engineer and have refurbished a lot of houses and the one's that give the most problems and cost the most to "make good" are those that have been tinkered with by home owners and non experts.

I view the vintage reviews in line with Amir's request to "come here to have some fun and not take online life too seriously".

Not having a shot, and I appreciate your sentiment, but the reality is vintage gear is just that, looks great and has that sort after retro feel but as you would expect performance is lacking compared to new gear - which just makes sense with the progress in technology such as Class D.
 

DonR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
3,013
Likes
5,734
Location
Vancouver(ish)
Hi Don.

How's that going to happen?

The whole ethos of ASR is that individuals (and manufacturers) send Amir gear to test for free. There is no cost to Amir, except for gear he purchases himself, and therefore no advertising. Meaning no pressure on Amir to give a favourable report/review.

From the ASR donation page;

"ASR relies on the goodwill of the visitors and members of the site to cover its expenses and enable testing of more products. There are no sponsors. No adds. No nothing."

Also, if the unit has been refurbished how do you know that the technician was competent and had a good understanding of the original designer's philosophy. My son is a motorbike enthusiast and will not buy a bike that has had modifications done for this reason. I'm an engineer and have refurbished a lot of houses and the one's that give the most problems and cost the most to "make good" are those that have been tinkered with by home owners and non experts.

I view the vintage reviews in line with Amir's request to "come here to have some fun and not take online life too seriously".

Not having a shot, and I appreciate your sentiment, but the reality is vintage gear is just that, looks great and has that sort after retro feel but as you would expect performance is lacking compared to new gear - which just makes sense with the progress in technology such as Class D.
Fair enough as long as people don't extrapolate a single example as representative of the product as a whole which appears to be what is happening. It also deviates from the otherwise science-based philosophy of this site.
 

Guerilla

Active Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
106
Likes
38
Probably sounds fine. On a Lot og speakers and to many ears the soundshaping is probably also a great plus compared to neutral amplifiers
Cheers!
 

fastfreddy666

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
56
Likes
100
Hey I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust. YEAH.

I love the design of the enclosure. But a power supply energy meter? WTF? VU meter or get the fuck out. Or even better a Loudness units relative to full scale (LUFS) meter. It measures the perceived loudness taking into account psychoacoustics. But wait... It's an amplifier.
Sound is always analog. Never mind. I'm joking... :) Although I did like the sound of my analog Modem when starting up. Plain Old Telephone system (POTS). Now I feel old.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,667
Likes
241,033
Location
Seattle Area
I agree. @amirm should hold off on doing any vintage reviews unless the review unit has been professionally serviced. Otherwise, he is just reviewing a particular example of an unknown state.
It is not unknown state. It is a working unit with redundancy (two channels to test).

There is no specifications worth their writing for this amp. Nor are there any independent measurements let alone one as detailed as I performed. Some of the impairments I found can be explained through circuit design. It is pure wishful thinking to assume that somehow the original was better when you have no data whatsoever to back it.

If this amp had incredibly low distortion and noise, that would have been its claim to fame, not light weight and efficiency.

Besides, it is representative of such an amp you would buy today after servicing. So that alone is very useful.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,511
Likes
25,350
Location
Alfred, NY
It is not unknown state. It is a working unit with redundancy (two channels to test).

There is no specifications worth their writing for this amp. Nor are there any independent measurements let alone one as detailed as I performed. Some of the impairments I found can be explained through circuit design. It is pure wishful thinking to assume that somehow the original was better when you have no data whatsoever to back it.

If this amp had incredibly low distortion and noise, that would have been its claim to fame, not light weight and efficiency.

Besides, it is representative of such an amp you would buy today after servicing. So that alone is very useful.
Don't mean to nag, but what was the reference level A for your multitone? I want to make sure my comparative stuff posted here will be apples to apples.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,667
Likes
241,033
Location
Seattle Area
Wondering if the bulbs were replaced while the recap occurred.
It is brighter in person than in the picture. But it is definitely uneven and funky. From Bob himself:

1645392169303.png
 

DonR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
3,013
Likes
5,734
Location
Vancouver(ish)
It is not unknown state. It is a working unit with redundancy (two channels to test).

There is no specifications worth their writing for this amp. Nor are there any independent measurements let alone one as detailed as I performed. Some of the impairments I found can be explained through circuit design. It is pure wishful thinking to assume that somehow the original was better when you have no data whatsoever to back it.

If this amp had incredibly low distortion and noise, that would have been its claim to fame, not light weight and efficiency.

Besides, it is representative of such an amp you would buy today after servicing. So that alone is very useful.
As you wish... you da' boss. :)
 
Top Bottom