Sunfire Cinema Grand Review (5-channel Amp)

[levimax]

@levimax We are both here in SD, what a coincidence!

Thank You for the link! I will order it this this week. I wanted a Velleman soft start unit but they dont make it anymore cause I wasn't able to find it a few years back when I wanted to go this route with a soft start.

Have you used this unit in any amps you have/had?

Good luck on your project. I have not used the exact soft start I linked to but I have built 4 Neurochrome amp modules and they work great. Tom's stuff is all top of the line and Tom will help you out if you have any issues and is also a contributor to this site.

 

[RndmLstner]

I also had the Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature that is the 400 WPC version. It is identified by a gold Bob Carver Signature on the front.

At the time, I went to Tweeter Etc and bought a Monster Power conditioners and plugged it into the amplifier "High Current" outlet.
The Monster fried immediately. I took it back to Tweeter, telling them, that it could not handle the amp.
The salesman insisted I take a replacement, it fried as well and they gave me my money back.

So, yes these require tremendous cosmic power when turned on

- Rich

Lmao. That's a classic. Thanks.

 

[304290]

This amp was my first foray into separates many years ago. The reviews I read about it doubling power at 4 ohms and the "grip and control" it had over speakers really peaked my interest. Unlike Amir, I was actually a fan of how it looked. That nice glow from the meter made me not not care for the fact that it wasn't really functional. I also really like the brushed black aluminum look. To me it looked like an audiophile home theater marvel.

After doing some initial listening, my first impression was, wow this thing powers my speakers like nobody's business! My second impression was wow, do my speakers sound dark and dirty. I made myself live with it as long as I could which was about a month before I ended up taking a bath and selling it on ebay. I put my receiver back in which was a a 63 pound onkyo( back when onkyo cared about sound) which sounded so much better.

It was about a couple of weeks until I got my hands on the 3 channel version of the aragon 8008mkII power amp and a two channel amp from their sister company acurus. It was with that setup was when I really got to hear what separates were all about(which mainly was just a lot more power than what a receiver could deliver). I was so disappointed with the sound of that amp that it turned me off to class d amps altogether. Well that and my experience with my first class d amplification which was a pioneer elite flagship receiver with ice amps that received raves reviews because it was one of few receivers that could actually output rated power 5 channels driven. Even to this day, with great measuring class d amps, I'm suspect about them. I'm sure they have come a long ways in the last 20 years. But that pioneer receiver and the sunfire amp really ruined it for me with class d amps.

The subjective guys say that measurements don't tell you the whole story, and in some ways that's true. But measurements does tell you most of the story. I've said this once in another forum. It's true some things can measure merely "ok" and still sound good. But I've never heard a single component that measured great, sound bad. When I saw the review title, I knew this would measure poorly because that's just how it sounded to me. Poorly.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Back in the day this was all the rage for home theater. It was top shelf product. But, time moves on and things improve. Think how far electronics have come in 30 years. I just enjoyed the "inside" look at all that analog goodness. Bashing it is like bashing a 30 year old Corvette compared to todays. There is no comparison. One thing Amir did accomplish very well. He made me feel very old............ prehistoric even!

 

[304290]

Back in the day this was all the rage for home theater. It was top shelf product. But, time moves on and things improve. Think how far electronics have come in 30 years. I just enjoyed the "inside" look at all that analog goodness. Bashing it is like bashing a 30 year old Corvette compared to todays. There is no comparison. One thing Amir did accomplish very well. He made me feel very old............ prehistoric even!

This isn’t hindsight for me. I bashed back when it was currently on the market. There were too many brands that produced good sounding gear back then. This was not one of them for me.

Was this product unique? Yes. Did it have unique engineering for the time? Yes. For me, where it always mattered was the sound. And in that department it was as poor then as it is now.

I’m also a vintage receiver/amp junkie. Everything in my collection still sounds really good even by todays standard. I won’t give this a pass because it’s older. Especially when it’s really not even old enough to call vintage yet. This amp was post Dolby digital.

 

[Cougar]

This is my amplifier but looking at the measurements, I wonder, if this was a complete repair. There are a lot of parts and if it still buzzes at the speaker, than I think I did not get my monies worth. I am surprised by the channel difference measurement.

At the time, this was the only choice for a cool running, high powered amplifier. Honestly, I expected better but the review makes me pleased that I replaced it with an ATI AT522NC amplifier. Smaller form factor, cool running, and reliability where the main features required.

- Rich

That's one of Mr. Kessler (former SAE) amps?

 

[amadeuswus]

I have the 7 x 200W version of this amp. It produces some mechanical hum through the case and more hiss through the speakers than did my Bryston 9B in a similar four-channel setup. But considering how cool it runs and how little I paid on Craigslist, no complaints. Thanks to RichB for sending it in.
(ps. Rich's amp has a captive power cord whereas mine has a 2-prong connector. I hope the grounding scheme in mine is a step up from the much-debated Crimson 275....)

 

[Cougar]

Good luck on your project. I have not used the exact soft start I linked to but I have built 4 Neurochrome amp modules and they work great. Tom's stuff is all top of the line and Tom will help you out if you have any issues and is also a contributor to this site.

Thanks! will look into his amp modules.

 

[RichB]

That's one of Mr. Kessler (former SAE) amps?

Yes, ATI is a Morris Kessler company. The ATI525NC is the 5-channel version of the AT522NC reviewed here:

ATI AT522NC Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the ATI AT522NC Stereo power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The 522NC costs US $2,195 but I see it on Amazon for US $1,995. The AT522NC is part of a series which starts with 2 channels of class D amplification and goes up to 4...

www.audiosciencereview.com

- Rich

 

[beefkabob]

Who wants to pay to ship my heavy Carver a-500x back and forth to Amirm? Original parts. Tons of power. Only moderate use.

 

[DACs_Lover]

I am waiting for Topping power amp.

 

[KEFCarver]

Amir, once again thanks for the review.
If possible, I'm looking forward to more vintage gear reviews.

I have racks of old gear at home, I buy non-working units and fix them as a hobby.
I'm not sure why everyone is surprised at the performance of these older amps. Bob Carver was just another engineer who tried to solve the problem of watts per pound and used his design innovations to establish a company selling high power amps for the average Joe.
The class G models he designed are still working after 40 years and for a few dollars, can be brought back to spec and still sound great.
His designs had flaws and they show in the specs and sometimes in the sound, but compromise is inevitable in all designs.

It's been exciting to watch class D evolve over the last couple of decades and I look forward to more innovation. Maybe different topologies will rise to dominate the market, but we're getting to the point where i/o connection area on the chassis will limit the how far they can shrink.
1200 watts of class D power in a 1/2 u sized box with distortion levels that are getting close to measurement limits of the best analyzers is here now and for under $1000 USD.

Looking forward to see where Gan Fets will take us and other new technological processes will arise as well.
It's been an incredible time to be alive and I have been enjoying the ride.

I have a similar hobby- possibly a condition- though I will sometimes buy something working if the price is good- after all, like hard drives, you can never have enough power amplifiers or preamps on hand I doubt there are many modern amps that short out the speaker outputs 10x like many of the Soundscraftsmen amps did as part of their final checkout data sheet (I will forget about the transformer hum they may exhibit under duress). I recently picked up a Carver Preamp and it tested well and hope to install it in one of my systems- I preferred it to a much more modern Emotiva preamp.....

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the (vintage?) Sunfire Cinema Grand five channel power amp designed by Bob Carver. It is on kind loan from a member. In 1996 it cost US $2,375. This unit is from 1999 and has had its caps upgraded.

View attachment 187950


P.S. no, I don't have any more carver amps to test. Nor did I seek them out. They just happen to become available all around the same time.

I'm about a half inch from buying a Cube with you bringing out this old tech!

 

[amirm]

@amirm For the "5W" multitone, what is the reference level (i.e., A in dBRA)? Thanks.

It is 0.38 volt RMS (4 ohm impedance). I set the playback level to whatever the dashboard says for 1 kHz/5Watts. That then always matches the reference. With gain varying between amps, this is what one has to do to get the same reference.

 

[GXAlan]

Mains noise gets through readily

Hm... would one of these generation of amps actually benefit from a AC power conditioner?

 

[SIY]

It is 0.38 volt RMS (4 ohm impedance). I set the playback level to whatever the dashboard says for 1 kHz/5Watts. That then always matches the reference. With gain varying between amps, this is what one has to do to get the same reference.

Thanks- I'm guessing that because this isn't a sine, it's actually not 5W. But at least now we can be consistent.

 

[JayGilb]

I doubt there are many modern amps that short out the speaker outputs 10x like many of the Soundscraftsmen amps did as part of their final checkout data sheet

I have eyed a few of the amps at pawn shops over the years and did own one of their equalizers.
Did you like their sound ?

 

[peng]

200w into 8 ohms and 454w into 4 ohms.
How can it more than double?

That can happen when you pick the number at different distortion levels for the two measurements.

 

[THD56]

Just for fun, I pulled my Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature amp out of storage to give it a listen. I used two of the 5 channels to power my KEF LS50 Metas. It's doing a very nice job, so I'll leave it in my system for a while.

 

[agiletiger]

Amir, once again thanks for the review.
If possible, I'm looking forward to more vintage gear reviews.

I have racks of old gear at home, I buy non-working units and fix them as a hobby.
I'm not sure why everyone is surprised at the performance of these older amps. Bob Carver was just another engineer who tried to solve the problem of watts per pound and used his design innovations to establish a company selling high power amps for the average Joe.
The class G models he designed are still working after 40 years and for a few dollars, can be brought back to spec and still sound great.
His designs had flaws and they show in the specs and sometimes in the sound, but compromise is inevitable in all designs.

It's been exciting to watch class D evolve over the last couple of decades and I look forward to more innovation. Maybe different topologies will rise to dominate the market, but we're getting to the point where i/o connection area on the chassis will limit the how far they can shrink.
1200 watts of class D power in a 1/2 u sized box with distortion levels that are getting close to measurement limits of the best analyzers is here now and for under $1000 USD.

Looking forward to see where Gan Fets will take us and other new technological processes will arise as well.
It's been an incredible time to be alive and I have been enjoying the ride.

My Carver M200t was purchased by my dad in 1984. It's still working just fine. Can't say the same for the preamp he bought with it - C-2. Instead of repairing it, I got a Topping D50S and I am using this combination more and more. Still can hear humming that seems to be a common theme with Bob's amps though.