Revel Concerta C10 Review (center speaker)

[sarumbear]

Why should what appears to be sound quality ratings in absolute terms consider such design compromises? If so, then should we include different categories of design before we make any judgements? Should we do the same with subwoofers? Below 10kg, 10-50kg, 50kg+? And speakers? So quality given size and price constraints? I would be perfectly fine with that but it would be a different kind of rating... This center is not in the same league quality wise as any of the centers I've had (even cheap ones) or currently have in my HT, so I would not call it "Fine" or "Great" without moderating that heavily as a lifestyle product for those who use it with their TV and have no ambitions for a proper HT setup.

You seem to forget that quality charts are subjective, so are @amirm’s views. Why do you care of them on a forum called Audio Science Review?

The quality rating on ASR is made up by people perceptions, not with data. We are all human and we all have views. That includes @amirm. However, he gave us the test data. We can use it and make up our own minds. People who have the knowledge to interpret will come up with the same conclusion. Not everyone has that knowledge, hence they may come up with different and sometimes silly conclusions.

For instance, I showed you how I interpreted the data. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Full range L/R speakers cannot solve the deficiencies of poor center channel speaker. If you redirect upper bass frequencies from the center to L/R, you'll still have the same problem of actors' voices being separated from the screen when they were intended to be coming from the screen.



Anything above about 100 Hz is not going to be omnidirectional. That is precisely why you don't want your subwoofer playing above that level. And if the sound engineer wants to give the sound (a voice, a cannon, thunder) a direction, he or she will include higher frequencies (above 100 Hz) to go with that sound and will place them in the desired channel (L, R, C, SL, SR, etc.)

Good front speakers will phantom center the voices.

 

[arisholm]

You seem to forget that quality charts are subjective, so are @amirm’s views. Why do you care of them on a forum called Audio Science Review?

The quality rating on ASR is made up by people, not with data. We are all human and we all have views. That includes @amirm. However, he gave us the test data. We can use it and make up our own minds. People who have the knowledge to interpret will come up with the correct conclusion. Not everyone has that knowledge, hence they may come up with wrong and often silly conclusions.

For instance, I gave you how I interpreted the data. Do you disagree with that?

I get your point about the "poll". Agreed. And I agree there are many tradeoffs that one can make, and for good reasons (price, size, etc). But I disagree with you that the flaw of this particular design can be fixed simply by increasing the crossover point to the sub or using DSP to fix the frequency response down to 200Hz. So I consider it to be a flawed product in objective terms given the purpose of a center channel speaker in most reasonable HT systems, thus not deserving a "recommendation"

 

[sarumbear]

I get your point about the "poll". Agreed. And I agree there are many tradeoffs that one can make, and for good reasons (price, size, etc). But I disagree with you that the flaw of this particular design can be fixed simply by increasing the crossover point to the sub or using DSP to fix the frequency response down to 200Hz. So I consider it to be a flawed product in objective terms given the purpose of a center channel speaker in most reasonable HT systems, thus not deserving a "recommendation"

Have a look at the FR chart again, please. Don’t you think that the baffle effect of a solid wall will lift the 150-200Hz area? All you need is 150Hz to be at -6dB if your subwoofer is cut off at 150Hz. It’s almost there on the chart below.

 

[amirm]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The goal of this series of reviews is to solve the problem of needing a center speaker in a setup like mine:

I have the matching center speaker for the Revel bookshelves but there is no way, no how it can fit in that cabinet. There is just room for a speaker like Revel C10 and its competitors. Among those, they have all had severe directivity errors with other response errors on top of that. The C10 is least compromised in that manner.

This is NOT a discussion of what would be the best center speaker. That type of speaker does not fit this application. When I have room, I use them like this Revel C52 which weighs some 60 pounds:

Even the midrange is too big to go under these TVs!

We built his cabinet custom at a time when a 50 inch TV was large. So I originally thought I would put a proper center under it. But then 65 inch TVs became common so that is what is in there, leaving no room for much of a center speaker.

Those Revel speakers need to be vertical but then would make the shelves too big so they are on the side as a nod to looks. Not everything is optimized for sound.

And yes, we do need to sometimes categorize things. On testing AVRs, I initially compared their DACs to desktop units. But then decided to make a category for them and grade on a curve that way. Otherwise they would all fall in the category of "not recommended."

 

[sarumbear]

Good front speakers will phantom center the voices.

Only if you are at dead centre!

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Only if you are at dead centre!

I am always dead center. Spouse didn't seem to notice 5 feet off center until arrival of RC263.

 

[Beershaun]

You seem to forget that quality charts are subjective

? I think you mean it's statistical. The preference score is based on Sean Olives research using trained listeners to corelate objective measures to personal preference. So its scientific.

Maybe a better way to express my point of view is, the center channel should ideally be the same as the left and right. And if vertical size constraints are an issue then solutions like KEFs unit-q coaxial driver solve that problem with excellent directivity. Since I've seen that it can be done properly from measurements that Amir has taken I ratchet up my acceptance bar to that level. "The consumer bar is always moving up. What was revolutionary at one time becomes commonplace. Consumers rightfully will continue to demand more."

 

[sarumbear]

I am always dead center. Spouse didn't seem to notice 5 feet off center until arrival of RC263.

I’m sorry to hear that. I like sharing things I enjoy with my partner.

 

[arisholm]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The goal of this series of reviews is to solve the problem of needing a center speaker in a setup like mine:

I have the matching center speaker for the Revel bookshelves but there is no way, no how it can fit in that cabinet. There is just room for a speaker like Revel C10 and its competitors. Among those, they have all had severe directivity errors with other response errors on top of that. The C10 is least compromised in that manner.

This is NOT a discussion of what would be the best center speaker. That type of speaker does not fit this application. When I have room, I use them like this Revel C52 which weighs some 60 pounds:

Even the midrange is too big to go under these TVs!

We built his cabinet custom at a time when a 50 inch TV was large. So I originally thought I would put a proper center under it. But then 65 inch TVs became common so that is what is in there, leaving no room for much of a center speaker.

Those Revel speakers need to be vertical but then would make the shelves too big so they are on the side as a nod to looks. Not everything is optimized for sound.

And yes, we do need to sometimes categorize things. On testing AVRs, I initially compared their DACs to desktop units. But then decided to make a category for them and grade on a curve that way. Otherwise they would all fall in the category of "not recommended."

Thank you for that clarification. It makes a lot more sense then. Except that I'd think you would be much better off without such a puny center in that beatiful setup you have! Just like in my living room No center needed here, with a bit of toe-in of the L-R speakers. Problem solved. Or better, get a proper center matching the L+R but that is a bit difficult here... PS that white thing in the middle is a Samsung UST projector with a built-in center channel... Not used, I promise ;-)

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I’m sorry to hear that. I like sharing things I enjoy with my partner.

That is why the RC263 was added.

 

[sarumbear]

? I think you mean it's statistical. The preference score is based on Sean Olives research using trained listeners to corelate objective measures to personal preference. So its scientific.

Is it repeatable? Does it work on different races, cultures, genre? As you said it’s statistics.

 

[sarumbear]

That is why the RC263 was added.

I have no idea what that is?

 

[amirm]

xcept that I'd think you would be much better off without such a puny center in that beatiful setup you have! Just like in my living room

You have more speakers there, than room.

 

[Inner Space]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The goal of this series of reviews is to solve the problem of needing a center speaker in a setup like mine ...

Not at all hard to understand ... but easy to regret. For movies and TV, the center channel is the most important, so surely the ASR way should be to bite the bullet ... and rebuild the cabinet!

 

[Beershaun]

Is it repeatable? Does it work on different races, cultures, genre? As you said it’s statistics.

Yes. His published and ongoing research explains this and the statistical relevance. I believe the current model explains 86% of customer preference data.

 

[arisholm]

You have more speakers there, than room.

Yes you should see the movie room

 

[sarumbear]

Yes. His published and ongoing research explains this and the statistical relevance. I believe the current model explains 86% of customer preference data.

I read his paper back in the 90s but was sceptical. Can you point me to the explanation where I can understand how his method is used on ASR?

 

[sam_adams]

You have more speakers there, than room.

And this is exactly the reason that products like this one, the Polks, and others exist. Some people want a room with speakers not speakers with a room wrapped around them.

 

[Beershaun]

I read his paper back in the 90s but was sceptical. Can you point me to the explanation where I can understand how his method is used on ASR?

Yes. Here is his interview with Erin where he walks through the research and parameters and factors he is currently using to calculate preference score. His equation is publicly available which is how the preference score posts are calculated.