[YouTube] The Big Measurement & Listening Mistake Some Hi-Fi Reviewers Make - SoundStage! Real Hi-Fi

[gsp1971]

I'm sure that is a very common reason underlying much of the criticism, arises from a natural lack of technical understanding, then tries to minimise the usefulness of measurements.

If we don't understand it, we dismiss it? I don't understand medicine ...

 

[Katji]

I was referring to the general criticism of ASR, not this listen first/after thing.

 

[gsp1971]

Have you given it a thought? Don't you find that looking at measurements before listening will affect the outcome of the assessment?
Please, cut the patronising cråp...

If you look at the technical specs of a car beforehand, will it bias your test drive?

 

[Frgirard]

If you look at the technical specs of a car beforehand, will it bias your test drive?

When I wash my car or when it comes out of service, I have the feeling that it "works" better. This is wrong and my suspension of gullibility prevents me from believing it but ...

So

Yes.

 

[JJB70]

I buy cars based on the style, perceived quality, feature set and running costs. Fuel figures are meaningless and in reality are determined by driving style and use case and since I stick within the speed limit and have never taken my own car on a track day I am not that worried about performance data. So if anything the car analogy would support subjective decision making in my case.

 

[gsp1971]

When I wash my car or when it comes out of service, I have the feeling that it "works" better. This is wrong and my suspension of gullibility prevents me from believing it but ...

So

Yes.

Fortunately I don't have that issue. I am perfectly capable of looking at measurements first and then listening without bias. In fact, after the summer I will be auditioning three pairs of speakers that I have shortlisted by having looked exhaustively at the measurements first.

 

[tuga]

If you look at the technical specs of a car beforehand, will it bias your test drive?

Can't you raise the level your argumentation a bit...

 

[gsp1971]

Can't you raise the level your argumentation a bit...

It will condition as much as reading a review, looking at the box or hearing a dealer's drivel.

Ditto.

 

[goat76]

Floyd Toole and Sean Olive seem to think otherwise.

I think I heard Toole say something like "measurements take you 90% there", and that you need to listen to the speaker to get the full picture. Was it in the interview Erin did with him, not sure?

The Spinorama measurements provide answers to all these questions. Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself a little more with the measurements.

That's the thing, not all of us can look at the measurements and be sure how that translates it to real-world use in every case, do you have a problem with me collecting more information from users to get a (for me) more complete picture of the product I'm interested in. Why is it of your concern, do we have a fight about this?

Do you really think most people that see the measurements of a speaker, where the main on-axis response curve indicates a hot treble, will start to look for the off-axis responses and think; "Oh... this speaker is probably designed to listen to without any toe-in." I think most readers who don't want an elevated treble (and just trusts measurements) will look for something else, even if listening reports from users (who have the speakers properly placed without toe-in) indicate a well-balanced sound.

There are speakers designed to be placed near the back wall, and no matter how you look at the Spinorama the measurements will probably indicate that the speaker lacks in the bass department. In real use property set up, not so much. Again, real-world user reports can be important and give you a better picture of how the speaker performs.

I don't understand this question ...

Sorry. What I meant was that it's not very easy to look at the measurements and know how the speakers perform in a property set-up stereo configuration, like soundstage and imaging compared to other speakers. And yes, I have had different pairs of speakers in my listening room, and they don't perform the same, and I don't have the knowledge or the skills to interpret the measurements to tell me how the speakers will perform in that regard. Maybe you can tell me that?

 

[gsp1971]

I think I heard Toole say something like "measurements take you 90% there", and that you need to listen to the speaker to get the full picture. Was it in the interview Erin did with him, not sure?

Sean Olive said that in one of his posts here in ASR.

That's the thing, not all of us can look at the measurements and be sure how that translates it to real-world use in every case

I figured that, that is why I recommended that you need to familiarize yourself a little more with the measurements. A lot of your questions will be answered.

... do you have a problem with me collecting more information from users to get a (for me) more complete picture of the product I'm interested in. Why is it of your concern, do we have a fight about this?

No, my friend, no problem at all, none of my concern, no fight. Other than for the sake of exchanging opinions, it's none of my business how you go about selecting your audio gear. Your money, your choice.

Do you really think most people that see the measurements of a speaker, where the main on-axis response curve indicates a hot treble, will start to look for the off-axis responses and think; "Oh... this speaker is probably designed to listen to without any toe-in."

Yes, I do. That is the point of ASR. Otherwise, there are other forums for non-technical subjective opinions.

Again, real-world user reports can be important and give you a better picture of how the speaker performs.

For your info, I used to do that too. I even had an excel sheet with hyperlinks to the relevant reviews and forum opinions (oh dear, but I did).
So I do understand why you are doing it, you have explained it clearly anyway, and I respect the fact that you are doing it cause I've been there.

Completely amicably (I never intended to spark a fight ), I will tell you that the more time you spend in ASR and the more familiar you become with Amir's measurements and the research behind them, there will be a steep learning curve which will eventually lead you to reconsider many things.

During that journey, I have personally come to understand that the personal, subjective, flawed, unsubstantiated opinion of 20-year-old Tom, Dick, and Mary in xyz forum is completely useless to me.

Whatever your choices, I sincerely hope your journey here at ASR is an educational and enjoyable one.

And I will let this debate rest.

Good luck with your audio journey and gear selection.

 

[Frgirard]

Fortunately I don't have that issue. I am perfectly capable of looking at measurements first and then listening without bias. In fact, after the summer I will be auditioning three pairs of speakers that I have shortlisted by having looked exhaustively at the measurements first.

Bravissimo, you are a GoldenEar.

 

[whazzup]

What's there to stop you from correlating your listening assessment with measurements after you have listened?

It doesn't make sense fo measure before as it will induce bias. It's as "unsicentific" as sighted listening.

You mean Amir's panthers are scientifically valid?

I posed a question earlier:
Erin was brought up as an example of a reviewer who listens before measuring. So what benefits or insights have you gained from his approach, as opposed to Amir's 'biased measure and listen'?

 

[gsp1971]

Bravissimo, you are a GoldenEar.

Not really.
I didn't say I have the ability or training to accurately determine everything about a speaker's performance just by listening.
I only said I have the ability to not let measurements bias me when I audition.
Suppose measurement shows an elevated treble by 3-4dB. If I can hear that during the audition, then I will know that 3-4dB elevation is detectable to my ears. If I cannot hear it and I like how the speaker sounds, then great!

 

[tuga]

You mean Amir's panthers are scientifically valid?

I posed a question earlier:
Erin was brought up as an example of a reviewer who listens before measuring. So what benefits or insights have you gained from his approach, as opposed to Amir's 'biased measure and listen'?

I don't care about panthers or SINAD or preference ratings.
But what is the point of providing a critical listening assessment report if it's been "coloured" by the sighting of measurements? Is it any different from the subjective magazine reviews so criticised at ASR?

 

[Frgirard]

I don't care about panthers or SINAD or preference ratings.
But what is the point of providing a critical listening assessment report if it's been "coloured" by the sighting of measurements? Is it any different from the subjective magazine reviews so criticised at ASR?

The measurements are room independent.
The room changes all.

 

[tuga]

The measurements are room independent.
The room changes all.

Amir provides more than measurements/data, he also analyses/comments them and provides a listening assessment and a score.
I am happy with the data and have no use for the rest, but many can't read measurements and they'll rely on the comments, the listening report and the panthers and the SINAD and the preference ratings...

 

[whazzup]

I don't care about panthers or SINAD or preference ratings.
But what is the point of providing a critical listening assessment report if it's been "coloured" by the sighting of measurements? Is it any different from the subjective magazine reviews so criticised at ASR?

You did not really answer my question...

So you said Amir's report is colored. By extension Erin's isn't colored because he listens first. So what's the tangible outcome of that for review readers like you and me? People trust Erin more? He is showered with more donations?

 

[tuga]

You did not really answer my question...

So you said Amir's report is colored. By extension Erin's isn't colored because he listens first. So what's the tangible outcome of that for review readers like you and me? People trust Erin more? He is showered with more donations?

Why are you talking about donations? Is any of them doing this for donations?
I don't know about you but I don't read the listening assessment, I'm only interested in the data. Yet many people can't read measurements and they'll rely on the comments, the listening report and the panthers and the SINAD and the preference ratings. A better service would be provided if the listening report were deeper in scope and performed in an unbiased manner as expected from a science-driven website/platform. You can't scorn subjectivists and criticise magazines and then not perform blind testing.

 

[amirm]

I think I heard Toole say something like "measurements take you 90% there", and that you need to listen to the speaker to get the full picture. Was it in the interview Erin did with him, not sure?

And he doesn't say because you have seen the measurements, your listening test are useless!

 

[amirm]

In my opinion, measuring before listening induces bias.

Just about every speaker designer measures, listens, modifies the design, measures, listens, etc. By your logic, they are incapable of making proper judgement in the listening phase. Correct?

See the absurdity of your argument?

What is really going on here is that you dislike that your favorite speaker measures poorly. So you desperately hope that someone who listens to it without knowledge of measurements and skills to evaluate the tonality of a speaker, likes it.

It is the same thing I get all the time. When I review a power cable and show it make no difference, what does an advocate of the power cable say? "Did you listen to it?" The hope is always the same: that they can hang their hat on conflict between listening tests and measurements as to verify their mistaken beliefs in audio.

Now, if you conducted the listening test with trained listeners in blind situation, that would be perfectly fine. But to say that joe youtuber is better off giving opinion without looking at measurements is just crazy. As it is, they don't know how to do their job and you want them to do it with even less tools to get it right? Assuming you don't lack this much common sense, then the above bolded statement is at play. Not a search for truth but for validation, damn the science and engineering.

Only in audio people ask that reliable objective information be put aside and let's just listen to random person online and have that be a valid data point.