WiiM Pro Streamer

[onlyoneme]

Because in that case the wiim is digital in to digital out. Measurements will only show the performance of the external DAC.


Unless the implementation in the Wiim is fundamentally broken no digital processing done by it will result in audible artifacts.

It's also analog input in WiiM... And a need to compare coax and toslink performance.
Digital out measurements can also show what to expect when different DACs are used, the ones with strong jitter suppression or reclocking versus the ones without such capabilities. Or the ones which use ASRC on input signal.
Also to verify if there are no cast issues.

 

[onlyoneme]

EDIT - and we have the measurements of the mini to demonstrate that the Wiim digital platoform is not broken.

And we have measurements which demonstrate that WiiM digital domain was broken due to faulty firmware. And it is still broken in EQ flat mode.

 

[MCH]

It's also analog input in WiiM... And a need to compare coax and toslink performance.
Digital out measurements can also show what to expect when different DACs are used, the ones with strong jitter suppression or reclocking versus the ones without such capabilities. Or the ones which use ASRC on input signal.
Also to verify if there are no cast issues.

ADC measurements could be interesting indeed. We are not flooded with options, especially with the functionality of the wiim. My expectations aren't high though.

 

[antcollinet]

It's also analog input in WiiM... And a need to compare coax and toslink performance.
Digital out measurements can also show what to expect when different DACs are used, the ones with strong jitter suppression or reclocking versus the ones without such capabilities. Or the ones which use ASRC on input signal.
Also to verify if there are no cast issues.

Analogue input is also measured in the mini - and is not that brilliant. But I view that as a niche application, and is probably fine for most analogue sources (Vinyl or tape)

Measurements shown here don't test with different Dacs. With a fully electronic digital source, then jitter is a function of the reciever device, not the transmitter. Similarly, SRC carried out by the reciever device is a function of that device - and its perfromance is not influenced by the source.

And regarding cast issues, functionality of devices is rarely checked here - except where it is so broken it is not possible to carry out the test.


So - to perhaps moderate my original statement. If using an external DAC, we can reasonably expect the Pro to be the same in performance to the Mini - which is audibly perfect. There might be a small value to a measurement to confirm this - but personally I'd not worry about it.

 

[antcollinet]

And we have measurements which demonstrate that WiiM digital domain was broken due to faulty firmware. And it is still broken in EQ flat mode.

Sorry - you are talking about bit perfect I think.

1 - Bit perfect is not a requirement of audible transparency - so would not show in any measurements here.
2 - Lack of bit perfect in a specific mode (a mode which is designed to change the bits) does not constitute (IMO) a fault. Swtiching to a mode that is intended for equalisation - and then complaining that it is not bit perfect is an argument lacking (looking for a polite word) coherence.

 

[onlyoneme]

Analogue input is also measured in the mini - and is not that brilliant. But I view that as a niche application, and is probably fine for most analogue sources (Vinyl or tape)

Measurements shown here don't test with different Dacs. With a fully electronic digital source, then jitter is a function of the reciever device, not the transmitter. Similarly, SRC carried out by the reciever device is a function of that device - and its perfromance is not influenced by the source.

And regarding cast issues, functionality of devices is rarely checked here - except where it is so broken it is not possible to carry out the test.


So - to perhaps moderate my original statement. If using an external DAC, we can reasonably expect the Pro to be the same in performance to the Mini - which is audibly perfect. There might be a small value to a measurement to confirm this - but personally I'd not worry about it.

We do not know if both digital outputs operate on the same level. We do not know it there are flaws in digital processing which can happen with every product especially just after the release. It has happened to Mini when it was already a mature product.
Look at the Chromecast Audio measurements and you will see that digital performance depends on both source and receiver quality.

 

[onlyoneme]

Sorry - you are talking about bit perfect I think.

1 - Bit perfect is not a requirement of audible transparency - so would not show in any measurements here.
2 - Lack of bit perfect in a specific mode (a mode which is designed to change the bits) does not constitute (IMO) a fault. Swtiching to a mode that is intended for equalisation - and then complaining that it is not bit perfect is an argument lacking (looking for a polite word) coherence.

I'm talking about clipping distortions made by DRC limiter implementation. I guess you didn't follow the story.

 

[antcollinet]

We do not know if both digital outputs operate on the same level. We do not know it there are flaws in digital processing which can happen with every product especially just after the release. It has happened to Mini when it was already a mature product.
Look at the Chromecast Audio measurements and you will see that digital performance depends on both source and receiver quality.

True - but that goes into the broken implementation category, which I excluded from my statement. Fortunately wiim has a good track record in fixing broken implementation.

As we also know, the implementation can become broken via firmware updates. So having a measuremnt at one point in time showing it is OK, doesn't protect you from that. You have to trust the manufacture to fix what they get wrong.


And, lets just bactrack a little. I was respoding to a post that says measurements are needed to see if it is a toy or not. In a digital in/out scenario measuremnets do not give that indication. They can only tell you if something is working correctly or not. In the event is it not, Toy/Not toy then comes down to "do you trust the manufacturer to fix it"

 

[onlyoneme]

True - but that goes into the broken implementation category, which I excluded from my statement. Fortunately wiim has a good track record in fixing broken implementation.

As we also know, the implementation can become broken via firmware updates. So having a measuremnt at one point in time showing it is OK, doesn't protect you from that. You have to trust the manufacture to fix what they get wrong.

Manufacturer will not fix something he is not aware of. Measurements can verify if there are issues here or not. Especially at the very beginning.

The truth is that regression tests do not seem to be a strong side of Linkplay.
"Trust, but verify."

 

[onlyoneme]

True - but that goes into the broken implementation category, which I excluded from my statement. Fortunately wiim has a good track record in fixing broken implementation.

You can put everything into broken implementation category if something doesn't fulfill the expectations. But you have to measure it first to have a view.

 

[Eneen]

What's power consumption in idle mode?

 

[Tangband]

If you are using digital output to an external dac, no measurements are necessary.

All indications so far are that the built in Dac is the same as on the mini - which has been measured here. Not that good with Sinad in the mid 80's putting it in the red region of the chart. Measurements would be interesting to see if this is the case also for the pro.

This is not right.
Faults can appear with bad SRC, bad digital volume regulation, and bad jitter performance, even from the digital spdif out as transmitter to an external dac . I wouldnt buy a streamer at 2023 with worse digital SINAD regarding jitter than -110 dB.

A computer with a cheap, good DDC ( 40 dollar ) can easily make better results than - 120 dB.

PHIREE U2S 2019 & Douk Audio U2 Review and Measurements (Digital USB to S/PDIF Interfaces)

PHIREE U2S 2019 & Douk Audio U2 Review and Measurements (Digital USB to S/PDIF Interfaces) Update March 2022: Added comparison with the Douk Audio U2. Here is a quick review of the PHIREE U2S 2019 digital interface. This is basically some USB to S/PDIF converter that allows you to get USB...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is an example of a bad digital transmitter:

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

Comparisons of the WiiM Pro, Coax output from LMS server, UPnP vs Chromecast.
For reference, Justboom Digi Zero, Pi Zero, LMS->Squeezelite, Coax output
My "test rig" is a $29 Inovato Quadra, so definitely not as accurate as @amirm's AP...

1kHz 24-bit test tone, ADI-2 DAC FS loopback to USB->Inovato Quadra

Justboom Digi Zero:

WiiM Pro Chromecast:

WiiM Pro UPnP:

 

[antcollinet]

This is not right.
Faults can appear with bad SRC, bad digital volume regulation, and bad jitter performance, even from the digital spdif out as transmitter to an external dac . I wouldnt buy a streamer at 2023 with worse digital SINAD regarding jitter than -110 dB.

A computer with a cheap, good DDC ( 40 dollar ) can easily make better results than - 120 dB.

PHIREE U2S 2019 & Douk Audio U2 Review and Measurements (Digital USB to S/PDIF Interfaces)

PHIREE U2S 2019 & Douk Audio U2 Review and Measurements (Digital USB to S/PDIF Interfaces) Update March 2022: Added comparison with the Douk Audio U2. Here is a quick review of the PHIREE U2S 2019 digital interface. This is basically some USB to S/PDIF converter that allows you to get USB...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is an example of a bad digital transmitter:

View attachment 251548

That chart you've taken from the chromecast review is not jitter - it is some weird failure in the interface between the chrome browser, and the chromecast or - possibly a badly implemented lossy codec. As you can see in the next chart in the review - competent software casting and no problem.

Bear in mind jitter on an output can only be the result of the output clock being unstable. Clearly this is not the case, or it would not work with any software.

 

[Tangband]

Comparisons of the WiiM Pro, Coax output from LMS server, UPnP vs Chromecast.
For reference, Justboom Digi Zero, Pi Zero, LMS->Squeezelite, Coax output
My "test rig" is a $29 Inovato Quadra, so definitely not as accurate as @amirm's AP...

1kHz 24-bit test tone, ADI-2 DAC FS loopback to USB->Inovato Quadra

Justboom Digi Zero:
View attachment 251575

WiiM Pro Chromecast:

View attachment 251576

WiiM Pro UPnP:

View attachment 251577

Thanks !
Good to know its behaving rather good, atleast on upnp.
A phiree usb/spdif converter for 40 dollars and a laptop is better measuring though.

Can you do the same test with digital volume control enabled on the digital output on this WiiM pro , at - 20 dB or something like this ?
To see how much worse it may look ? When enabling the volume control on the digital out, is everything SRC to 48 kHz, as it is on the Yamaha wxc50 ?

 

[Tangband]

That chart you've taken from the chromecast review is not jitter - it is some weird failure in the interface between the chrome browser, and the chromecast or - possibly a badly implemented lossy codec. As you can see in the next chart in the review - competent software casting and no problem.

Bear in mind jitter on an output can only be the result of the output clock being unstable. Clearly this is not the case, or it would not work with any software.

Chromecast is not the only device that behaves bad . Bad implemented codecs or SRC are everywhere. Windows mixer is one example.

 

[onlyoneme]

A phiree usb/spdif converter for 40 dollars and a laptop is better measuring though.

I'm pretty sure it will measure on the same level on RME DAC if you use the same measure settings.

Mini:

Cheap converter (Hifime S2 Digi):

 

[onlyoneme]

That chart you've taken from the chromecast review is not jitter - it is some weird failure in the interface between the chrome browser, and the chromecast or - possibly a badly implemented lossy codec. As you can see in the next chart in the review - competent software casting and no problem.

Bear in mind jitter on an output can only be the result of the output clock being unstable. Clearly this is not the case, or it would not work with any software.

Here was the jitter:

"The Chromecast output has more jitter than an audiophile/instrument grade Toslink output. This is evident when used with low quality DACs like Schiit Modi 2 Uber."

 

[morillon]

Here was the jitter:

View attachment 251660

"The Chromecast output has more jitter than an audiophile/instrument grade Toslink output. This is evident when used with low quality DACs like Schiit Modi 2 Uber."

will be interesting to observe the quality of the jitter on the side of just the clock (the j-
-test go a little further) of the pro compared to the mini (really not terrible on this specific point..) and rather under low treatment conditions.. otherwise it will hardly be observable...
a new hardware on the pro .. can be a clear progress on this point?
the coax toslink comparison will be interesting as well on
;-)

 

[onlyoneme]

will be interesting to observe the quality of the jitter on the side of just the clock (the j-
-test go a little further) of the pro compared to the mini (really not terrible on this specific point..) and rather under low treatment conditions.. otherwise it will hardly be observable...
a new hardware on the pro .. can be a clear progress on this point?
the coax toslink comparison will be interesting as well on
;-)

Most likely the same I would expect on RME. ADI-2 handles incoming jitter very well.

Mini:

S2 Digi: