WiiM Pro - Review & Measurements (Streamer)

[Endibol]

In which case Hans would be talking rubbish

He calls the sound "nasal, lows don't go deep and lack any form of resolution. There is hardly any stereo image, the sound sticks to the loudspeaker" and so on... And mind you, he is talking about the digital output of the Mini, not the DAC output...
So yes, he is very wrong indeed!
EDIT: I attached Amir's WiiM Mini review below Hans's video. He removed it and blocked me! Incredible, this shows that he isn't an honest reviewer, open for other opinions.

 

[Overseas]

Sound sticks to the loudspeaker... now that's something new, what did he smoke?

 

[nanook]

This indeed sounds weird - we're talking about the digital output, right?

Sure, there will be some jitter on the Toslink (this is actually actually always the case because of ISI due to the limited bandwidth of Toslink) but a decent and up-to-date DAC will have a fair amount of jitter suppression in the clock recovery.

Did Amir's measurements actually comprise a jitter measurement?

Back in the beginnings of CD, when engineers were not yet aware of the issue "jitter' and the clock was generated at the transport and handed through all stages until it finally was used as word-clock at the DAC, jitter was an issue.
I remembered that I once compared a high-end transport to the SPDIF output of a normal CD player, both paired with a separate DAC. Although being prepared to hear no difference, I did believe I do.
T+A invented the "reverse clocking" scheme (having the clock generation at the DAC) and developers got more and more aware that jitter can be audible. But this was in the 80`s or 90`s...

Question regarding the DAC measurements in general:
The spectrum that Amir shows is measured with a perfectly clean SPDIF or Toslink signal from the AP I assume. Right? This would only show if the DAC itself adds some systematic jitter.
Feeding the DAC with a systematic jitter at different frequencies would show the ability of the DAC to suppress jitter present in the SPDIF or Toslink signal. This would be quite interesting.
Does the AP support such a measurement?

I have hooked the WIIM Pro to my D-6s and I'm perfectly happy. I ordered the Pro instead of the Mini mainly because of the form factor - and the Pro was on discount.

 

[Endibol]

This indeed sounds weird - we're talking about the digital output, right?

Sure, there will be some jitter on the Toslink (this is actually actually always the case because of ISI due to the limited bandwidth of Toslink) but a decent and up-to-date DAC will have a fair amount of jitter suppression in the clock recovery.

Did Amir's measurements actually comprise a jitter measurement?

Back in the beginnings of CD, when engineers were not yet aware of the issue "jitter' and the clock was generated at the transport and handed through all stages until it finally was used as word-clock at the DAC, jitter was an issue.
I remembered that I once compared a high-end transport to the SPDIF output of a normal CD player, both paired with a separate DAC. Although being prepared to hear no difference, I did believe I do.
T+A invented the "reverse clocking" scheme (having the clock generation at the DAC) and developers got more and more aware that jitter can be audible. But this was in the 80`s or 90`s...

Question regarding the DAC measurements in general:
The spectrum that Amir shows is measured with a perfectly clean SPDIF or Toslink signal from the AP I assume. Right? This would only show if the DAC itself adds some systematic jitter.
Feeding the DAC with a systematic jitter at different frequencies would show the ability of the DAC to suppress jitter present in the SPDIF or Toslink signal. This would be quite interesting.
Does the AP support such a measurement?

I have hooked the WIIM Pro to my D-6s and I'm perfectly happy. I ordered the Pro instead of the Mini mainly because of the form factor - and the Pro was on discount.

Amir showed 1 jitter graph in his WiiM mini review. To be honest I am not 100% sure whether this is related to the Toslink output.

 

[staticV3]

Amir showed 1 jitter graph in his WiiM mini review. To be honest I am not 100% sure whether this is related to the Toslink output.

It shows the analog output.

 

[Endibol]

It shows the analog output.

Thanks, would the digital jitter performance be as good as the analog, or even better?

 

[staticV3]

Thanks, would the digital jitter performance be as good as the analog, or even better?

You can't really compare jitter performance between analog and digital out.

Analog jitter is baked into the output, while digital jitter can be removed by the receiving device.

Anyway, only measurements would tell us about the WiiM's digital output jitter.

 

[nanook]

Anyway, only measurements would tell us about the WiiM's digital output jitter.

Do you know, if the AP can measure jitter on the digital out?
And did Amir ever show measurements regarding jitter suppression of a DAC with Toslink or SPDIF input ?

 

[staticV3]

Do you know, if the AP can measure jitter on the digital out?

It can.

And did Amir ever show measurements regarding jitter suppression of a DAC with Toslink or SPDIF input ?

Afaik, no.

Here are two reviews that measure how well the DUT can suppress jitter:
https://goldensound.audio/2022/08/29/crane-song-solaris-quantum-dac-measurements/
https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-topping-d30pro-dac/

 

[nanook]

Thanks, staticV3 , I couldn't remember to have seen measurements like that on ASR.
SMSL claims to incorporate a special clock module in some of their products, so manufacturers seem to be aware of this.

1) Jitter spectrum at SPDIF /Toslink outputs for e.g. streamers and stuff that will likely be paired with an external DAC.

2) Jitter-Spektrum (analog) with significant amount of jitter from the AP when measuring SPDIF and Toslink inputs.
Either with a few discrete frequencies or - if the AP allows to do this - with a multi-tone jitter stimulus, e.g. 2 tones per decade.

Do you think we can put this on the wishlist for Amir's standard tests? For a DAC connected to a streamer e.g. jitter rejection would be an important information.

 

[staticV3]

Do you think we can put this on the wishlist for Amir's standard tests?

Sure.

 

[nanook]

I've been reading up some posts on the ASR that addressed "jitter". For some reason this topic seems to be "scorched earth" here in the forum.
Net: It's not audible -> it's not relevant
I agree, it needs a lot of jitter to become audible and when engineers started to address this decades ago it hardly is relevant from the listening point of view. But this forum discusses a lot of things that almost everyone agrees are not audible.

I'd be very pleased to see the already mentioned measurements in the standard dashboard
1) Jitter spectrum at SPDIF /Toslink outputs for e.g. streamers and stuff that will likely be paired with an external DAC.
2) Jitter-Spektrum (analog) with significant amount of jitter from the AP when measuring SPDIF and Toslink inputs.
Either with a few discrete frequencies or - if the AP allows to do this - with a multi-tone jitter stimulus, e.g. 2 tones per decade.

Might be a boring plot for most of the properly designed units, but from time to time there are DACs that are not perfectly clean in the jitter test especially on Toslink - and I bet, AP has given their best to provide a clean optical signal (in order to see as good as possible the performance of the DUT).
The ASR is pushing the manufacturers mainly with SINAD - where honestly 1dB is "nothing" - something you can cook down to a single number. A decent jitter performance (output) and a good jitter suppression (re-clocking for the SPDIF and Toslink inputs) should be a given, but who knows.

--> Where would I place this request?
And if I'm the only one who thinks these measurements are important, then i shouldn't do it anyway.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

In my case, see previous 1-2 pages (device connection failed), after checking the source album etc, WIIM support recommended using 2.4ghz Wifi, not 5ghz.
So, is this a problem of MY network or what?

Could be a lot of factors. WiFi 2.4ghz vs 5ghz have very different characteristics with regard to distance, power, propagation through obstacles, interference from other devices, etc. And that is before touching on other networks intruding into the same sub-channel space that your WiFi SSID is camped out on.

Both have more than sufficient bandwidth for high definition streaming absent any of those other factors.

Also to add: if your WiiM is not in the same room as the WiFi transmitter, you most likely should be on a 2.4ghz band since the 5ghz is greatly affected when passing through walls... especially more than one wall.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

 

[Smitty2k1]

Like like like like

 

[Vini darko]

How do I get that 10 band EQ update? I got the EQ per input update today but not the one you have. Here's the firmware I have.

 

[Pritaudio]

Can’t think of another streamer with this amount of eq options, and still in the digital domain.
if only it had seperate rca output for a sub along with crossover options. Could almost cut and paste from rew measurements.

 

[staticV3]

Can’t think of another streamer with this amount of eq options, and still in the digital domain.
if only it had seperate rca output for a sub along with crossover options. Could almost cut and paste from rew measurements.

The WiiM Ultra has exactly that: RCA Line out for Mains and Sub with crossover options.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

How do I get that 10 band EQ update? I got the EQ per input update today but not the one you have. Here's the firmware I have.
View attachment 364858

No idea why I got the update. I guess I’m special, lol.