Why people still use tube amps when there are plenty of tubes already used in the making of music

[egellings]

I know a couple of folks using DIY SE amps using GM70 outputs. Haven't encountered an amp using the GM100, though.

Huff & puff & blow the electric company down!

 

[Anton D]

To answer the original question: Audio is supposed to be enjoyable—fun. Instead of theorizing how people that use tube amps are ignorant, stupid, trying to impress, gullible, etc. Buy a used tube amp and try it. Sell it when you‘re done. You will have lost nothing and maybe you will hear something you like.

BLASPHEMER!!!!

 

[Waxx]

I did some testing a few years ago with a local known rockband (a stoner/hardrock/powerrock trio) where we recorded the guitar split signal, one to di to daw and one with his full stack (fender telecaster to Orange tube head with a Fender 4x10' cabinet, don't remember the exact types) that was recorded in a seperate booth with very standard Senheider MD421 microphone to a Neve 1073 (racked but from an original 8024 console) to the same daw. They wanted the live sound and we (i was called in to help) to get that sound with plugings, but we did not manage to get the right sound. When we did a blind test (i was operating the computer, they were sitting in another room listening to what i send them) they (the band and some friends) all prefered the real recorded amp over any simulated tube amp tries. So they stick to recording the amp itself for their music.

They were never happy with the countless tries to record gutar dry (straight from guitar over di to daw) and simulate a tube amp, it always sounds artificial. I would love to post those files here randomised, but i don't own the music rights nor the takes so i can't. But if you are a guitar player with some studio setup, try this and you will hear what i mean.

Tube amps is something very hard to simulate in software because of the very complex character, a few tubes in an amp is even more difficult because tubes interact and interact with the tranfo's and other elements in the circuit. It can be that simulation is good enough for you, but it's not the same as the real thing for electric guitar, it's something else, another tool in the toolbox. That is also what think about hifi tube amps. I have tube amp, but got many solid state (class A, class AB and class D (Ncore) amps also, and each got it's strong and weak points I think. So use what fits you.

And no, tube amps are not technical superior to solid state, they are old tech and inferior technically. But they do sound good in the right setting. They are like oldtimer cars or modern variations of it (like the Morgan cars). Technically inferior without a doubt, but a lot of fun when used right.

 

[levimax]

I did some testing a few years ago with a local known rockband (a stoner/hardrock/powerrock trio) where we recorded the guitar split signal, one to di to daw and one with his full stack (fender telecaster to Orange tube head with a Fender 4x10' cabinet, don't remember the exact types) that was recorded in a seperate booth with very standard Senheider MD421 microphone to a Neve 1073 (racked but from an original 8024 console) to the same daw. They wanted the live sound and we (i was called in to help) to get that sound with plugings, but we did not manage to get the right sound. When we did a blind test (i was operating the computer, they were sitting in another room listening to what i send them) they (the band and some friends) all prefered the real recorded amp over any simulated tube amp tries. So they stick to recording the amp itself for their music.

They were never happy with the countless tries to record gutar dry (straight from guitar over di to daw) and simulate a tube amp, it always sounds artificial. I would love to post those files here randomised, but i don't own the music rights nor the takes so i can't. But if you are a guitar player with some studio setup, try this and you will hear what i mean.

Tube amps is something very hard to simulate in software because of the very complex character, a few tubes in an amp is even more difficult because tubes interact and interact with the tranfo's and other elements in the circuit. It can be that simulation is good enough for you, but it's not the same as the real thing for electric guitar, it's something else, another tool in the toolbox. That is also what think about hifi tube amps. I have tube amp, but got many solid state (class A, class AB and class D (Ncore) amps also, and each got it's strong and weak points I think. So use what fits you.

And no, tube amps are not technical superior to solid state, they are old tech and inferior technically. But they do sound good in the right setting. They are like oldtimer cars or modern variations of it (like the Morgan cars). Technically inferior without a doubt, but a lot of fun when used right.

The whole tube emulation thing is kind of silly as the most audible difference between tube amps and SS amps is going to be the higher output impedance of the tube amp interacting with the impedance of the speaker to change the FR. Unless you programed the impedance curve of your exact speaker into the emulator there is no way the emulator is going to know what speaker it is playing into so it is not going to be correctly emulating tubes.

Specific musical instrument amps over driven to distortion do have a unique sound and are part of the performance which is hopefully accurately recorded. After the recording is complete adding more distortion on playback only changes the original performance away from what it was. Would anyone hook up a DAC to a overdriven Marshall amp to play back an Aerosmith recording and think this was a good idea or that is would sound "better"?

 

[MattHooper]

They were running a special on a set of KT120’s when you ordered an amp. Mine are on the way.

Please let me know if you perceive any difference. I'd be fascinated to see if you happen to experience similar results to what I perceived.

 

[MattHooper]

You are assuming that there is actually an audible difference in the sound waves between tubes and SS amps. I took the time and trouble to level matched and blind ABX test a Dynaco ST-70 and Neurochrome Mod 86 and even through there were large measurable differences between the amps I could not tell any difference. Before I did the test blind and level matched I could clearly hear a difference. I contend people like tube amps for the look and feel and psychoacoustic effects and not any real audible differences.

That seems a pretty broad conclusion based on your single home test, doesn't it?

I'm certainly cognizant that my own impressions can be imaginary or biased. Though did you see My thread detailing my blind test between my CJ tube preamp and Benchmark solid state preamp?

I could tell the difference reliably, and the differences were the same as when I used the preamps in sighted conditions. But I wouldn't leverage that to "all tube amplification sounds different from solid state."

Specific musical instrument amps over driven to distortion do have a unique sound and are part of the performance which is hopefully accurately recorded. After the recording is complete adding more distortion on playback only changes the original performance away from what it was.

But one could say the same of someone's preference in, say, wider dispersion speakers over narrow dispersion, or preference for more room reflection vs less, or a particular room correction target curve over another, all of which alter the sound. Given with tube amps we are normally, at best, talking about very subtle differences, it seems to open up quite the can of worms to say "but you are adding some form of coloration."

 

[Moonbase]

And there was me thinking that an amp should add nothing. So any amp that adds or has a sound is a bad amp?

 

[MoreWatts]

Specific musical instrument amps over driven to distortion do have a unique sound and are part of the performance which is hopefully accurately recorded. After the recording is complete adding more distortion on playback only changes the original performance away from what it was. Would anyone hook up a DAC to a overdriven Marshall amp to play back an Aerosmith recording and think this was a good idea or that is would sound "better"?

As I mentioned in post 16...

"I saw Dickey Betts' Let's Get Together album tour (~2002) with my elbows on the stage, a few feet from Dickey and Dangerous Dan Toler on guitars. This was a first-hand lesson in what tube-crunch really is. The stage Marshall amps were glowing and shaking as they were musically over-driven by these seasoned pros. My solid-state system reproduces this guitar tube-crunch just fine. It is in the recording, on the album, where it belongs. It is not something that needs to be added by the playback system."

I love how there are about half a dozen (a dozen?) completely argumentative threads at ASR that go around in constant circles...

 

[solderdude]

But I'm curious, wouldn't you assume, if we for a moment agreed it's fine to assume, that people buying tube amps for home audio are not buying them to have them indistinguishable from solid state?

Yes, in fact they usually expect the usual magic. In some (but certainly not all) cases it is likely that the magic happens in the head more than in the actual signal being different.

Let me just say, and this is the first time me saying this, I'd respect those who want a specific sound more. I mean, even very properly designed tube amps DO burn through tubes. So, if not for a sound you like, then why. I can see the trade off; well, I'll replace tubes, but I'll have my sound, but the "trade off" well I'll replace tubes...

Tube swapping (with all kinds of different magic) is quite common practice. In some cases the difference is quite measurable in other cases it is not.
Generally tube amp owners know tubes have a finite lifetime.

 

[solderdude]

You actually know audiophiles who shop this way?

I guess it's possible, I know SINADologists who brag about their inaudible reductions in distortion.

I think most audiophiles buy gear based on recommendations.
There are also some folks that buy them because they look really nice and cool. Not everyone of them will admit it.
Tube amps are loaded with mystery and magic for audiophiles.

 

[Waxx]

The whole tube emulation thing is kind of silly as the most audible difference between tube amps and SS amps is going to be the higher output impedance of the tube amp interacting with the impedance of the speaker to change the FR. Unless you programed the impedance curve of your exact speaker into the emulator there is no way the emulator is going to know what speaker it is playing into so it is not going to be correctly emulating tubes.

that is certainly true

Specific musical instrument amps over driven to distortion do have a unique sound and are part of the performance which is hopefully accurately recorded. After the recording is complete adding more distortion on playback only changes the original performance away from what it was. Would anyone hook up a DAC to a overdriven Marshall amp to play back an Aerosmith recording and think this was a good idea or that is would sound "better"?

The thing is, Hifi tube amps are build and calibrated very different than instrument tube amps, and so the kind of distortion, and mainly the amount is very different. You can't compare both like that. They both use tubes as amplifier device and transformers to make the signal fit for a speaker, but next to that, they are very different. Guitar amp systems also got very coloured speaker drivers, tuned to sound a certain way that sounds good on guitars, but terrible as hifi speakers.

 

[rwortman]

The most common misconception

It’s not a misconception unless you think all rooms and all speakers sound alike. The mix and mastering engineers were adjusting to what sounded right to them, on their speakers, in their room. You‘re ability to recreate that sound exactly is more dependent on knowing what they were using and how they were using it in that room than it is on how big your Sinad number is, by far. This is the well known “circle of confusion” and is what makes all audiophile discussions of “transparent to the source“ a red herring.

 

[rwortman]

And there was me thinking that an amp should add nothing. So any amp that adds or has a sound is a bad amp?

The way amps are most commonly tested is while connected to a resistive dummy load. While they are producing these amazing distortion numbers, they aren’t making a sound at all. The assumption is that the only thing that happens when you connect it to a speaker is frequency response modification cause by the output impedance in series with the speaker. I think it’s more complicated than that. You are going to see much more distortion and I think that varies from amp to amp and speaker to speaker.

 

[antcollinet]

I love how there are about half a dozen (a dozen?) completely argumentative threads at ASR that go around in constant circles...

It is an ASR specialty. Great fun - for a little while. After the third decade it can get a little stale.

Tube amps are loaded with mystery and magic for audiophiles.

They can certainly look very pretty. I'd like to own one just for that reason.

My only problem is I'm not prepared to pay the necessary tax for that particular aesthetic.

 

[antcollinet]

I think it’s more complicated than that. You are going to see much more distortion and I think that varies from amp to amp and speaker to speaker.

How so - please do explain the physics behind that.

 

[rwortman]

Ask Amir what the analyzer reports when the amp is attached to a speaker.

 

[antcollinet]

Ask Amir what the analyzer reports when the amp is attached to a speaker.

No, that is not how it works. You don't get to make an assertion, and then get someone else to disprove it for you without first giving some evidenced justification for the assertion.

You are going to see much more distortion and I think that varies from amp to amp and speaker to speaker.

Presumably you have some understanding of the underlying physics or electronics, or have done some measurements to demonstrate it.

Or is it just made up out of fresh air, and unicorns?

 

[rwortman]

No, that is not how it works. You don't get to make an assertion, and then get someone else to disprove it for you without first giving some evidenced justification for the assertion.



Presumably you have some understanding of the underlying physics or electronics, or have done some measurements to demonstrate it.

Or is it just made up out of fresh air, and unicorns?

I don’t have the equipment and I didn’t feel like typing up a lengthy explanation. I asked in another thread why we didn’t measure amps while driving speakers and Amir said he tried it and didn’t know how to interpret the results. I wasn’t asking him to do something new, just say what he saw. When an amplifier is driving a complex and active load it is getting all kinds of voltages sent back to it from the speaker. This voltages are phase shifted from the original signal. Test resistors don’t do this. What the feedback loop does with these is of interest and not entirely predicted by it’s performance into a resistor.

 

[SIY]

When an amplifier is driving a complex and active load it is getting all kinds of voltages sent back to it from the speaker. This voltages are phase shifted from the original signal. Test resistors don’t do this. What the feedback loop does with these is of interest and not entirely predicted by it’s performance into a resistor.

So what we've done here is handwave a problem into existence, then handwave an "explanation" for the problem. Then ask other people to go chase it. No thanks.

Of course, some of us have actually checked distortion into speaker loads and, as expected by anyone who actually understands how amps work, nothing remarkable is seen unless the load takes the amp outside of its intended area of operation (e.g., impedance dips to near-short circuit).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

But I think in this case it also means like a guitar amp. Like using some Mesa Boogies or some Fender amps with tubes.

Sure, see my post in #107.

There's a difference between the fixed kit in a studio setup comprising the recording space and cubicle versus what is brought in by the musicians on a per session basis.

Imagine a two day booking for a small rock combo followed by a four day session by an acoustic folk band. What is temporarily in the recording space is completely different, but the console, monitors, DAW, tie-lines, line amplifiers, EQ are the same every day until a studio rebuild. That stuff that's the same is well over 95% solid state for reliability and heat extraction reasons.