Why people still use tube amps when there are plenty of tubes already used in the making of music

[rwortman]

I enjoy going back-and-forth between NOS 6550 power tubes and the bigger
KT 120 power tubes in my CJ amps.

They were running a special on a set of KT120’s when you ordered an amp. Mine are on the way.

 

[bungle]

any more than it's the diner's job to finish cooking the meal.

Chinese hot pot comes to mind.

 

[FINFET]

In the end one should enjoy what they enjoy most and use whatever one wants to achieve that goal.
Regardless if that is close to the reproduced waveform or deviates in some way(s).

The goal is different for various people ranging from not caring about quality (handy speaker) and enjoy the 'artists creative work' to getting as much sonic pleasure or knowing the reproduced waveforms are as close as possible to what reaches the ears.
Different goals, different viewpoints, different gear.

One should do whatever they want/like as long as you do not offend or bother others or tell them how one should be doing things.
That said .... there are differences between technically good performing gear and what one prefers. They do not have to be the same thing.
ASR is mostly about optimal signal fidelity and when that is done 'correctly' what is heard may be pleasant or not and is the goal.
Different viewpoint from attempting to always get 'pleasant' sound regardless of recording quality.

People use tube gear because they want to and like it, one could call them 'listening pleasure seekers'.
It just, in general, is not as perfect in waveform fidelity as 'waveform conformists' want their gear to be.

Both are right but in different ways.

Changing waves can be good, but using fixed, colored, and distorted hardware to change the waves is one of the least effective ways to morph waves. Whether using hardware analog channel strips or software VSTs, there are millions of ways to modify sound to suit one's preference, and all modifications can be controlled by tuning parameters on the panel with great flexibility. Add distortion, change frequency response and phase, add reverbs and delays as you like, seperate human voice from instruments, get soundstage wider, choose anything you want to modify and the amount you want to add; all are at your fingertips. However, using a fixed hardware amp to do the colorization and distortion and consider that change is satifying is quite odd to me. This is an extremely random and ad-hoc way to do this. It's like someone randomly hearing some sound that came from an amp, and suddenly deciding that it's the sound they want to hear for the rest of their lives. I would not call them listening pleasure seekers, but mostly people who haven't found the right way to seek pleasure in changing sound to suit their needs.

 

[levimax]

Changing waves can be good, but using fixed, colored, and distorted hardware to change the waves is one of the least effective ways to morph waves. Whether using hardware analog channel strips or software VSTs, there are millions of ways to modify sound to suit one's preference, and all modifications can be controlled by tuning parameters on the panel with great flexibility. Add distortion, change frequency response and phase, add reverbs and delays as you like, seperate human voice from instruments, get soundstage wider, choose anything you want to modify and the amount you want to add; all are at your fingertips. However, using a fixed hardware amp to do the colorization and distortion and consider that change is satifying is quite odd to me. This is an extremely random and ad-hoc way to do this. It's like someone randomly hearing some sound that came from an amp, and suddenly deciding that it's the sound they want to hear for the rest of their lives. I would not call them listening pleasure seekers, but mostly people who haven't found the right way to seek pleasure in changing sound to suit their needs.

You are assuming that there is actually an audible difference in the sound waves between tubes and SS amps. I took the time and trouble to level matched and blind ABX test a Dynaco ST-70 and Neurochrome Mod 86 and even through there were large measurable differences between the amps I could not tell any difference. Before I did the test blind and level matched I could clearly hear a difference. I contend people like tube amps for the look and feel and psychoacoustic effects and not any real audible differences.

 

[FINFET]

You are assuming that there is actually an audible difference in the sound waves between tubes and SS amps. I took the time and trouble to level matched and blind ABX test a Dynaco ST-70 and Neurochrome Mod 86 and even through there were large measurable differences between the amps I could not tell any difference. Before I did the test blind and level matched I could clearly hear a difference. I contend people like tube amps for the look and feel and psychoacoustic effects and not any real audible differences.

I mentioned in earlier post that it's true a properly implemented tube will be quite transparent like SS ones but still many are not so good, so differences can be heard especially when frequency response changes due to damping factor problem as many people in this thread said. The post is a reply to solderdude's post about people consider using tube amps suit their listening pleasure which I find it being extremely hard as It's like throwing darts randomly to hit the inner ring on the board, and each dart will cost you like 1k dollars. Better try to use other ways intead of buying random gears with random parameters.

 

[rwortman]

Better try to use other ways intead of buying random gears with random parameters.

Better for you. There are many guitar players who insist that even the best solid state emulations of a tube amp still don’t sound exactly like a tube amp. Now they are listening for actual clipping distortions but still, your assertion that a VST plug in or SS channel strip will sound the same as a tube amp is suspect.

If it’s true that tube amps have a sound I think it’s because high voltage transformer coupled output stages interact with a loudspeaker differently than direct coupled solid state, and that this does not result only in frequency response variation but also differences in the distortion profile. I don’t think any of the pristine measuring SS amps is going to maintain that measurement when connected to an actual speaker. So, while it may be true that all tube amps don’t sound the same, it may also be true that transformer coupled tube amps differ from direct coupled SS in a consistent way. (And this may be why Mcintosh uses transformer coupling in their SS amps). Choosing to listen with a tube amp may not be throwing darts to find a random pleasing sound but choosing a (slightly) different sound on purpose.

Flogging the ‘circle of confusion” dead horse. No one is listening to electromagnetic waves (that we know of). The recorded wave that we deem so sacred is nothing more or less than the signal it took to produce a particular sound in a particular room using a particular playback system. If our goal is to reproduce that sound we need a lot more information about the system and conditions in that studio than we have access to. If our goal is to produce a sound our listening space that sounds as much like real people and real instruments as we can afford to do, that makes the recording merely the raw material we start with.

 

[killdozzer]

I like your question. To me it makes sense to question that since a tube upon a tube upon a tube... It's further distorting.

That's why I think different set of rules apply for making music and reproducing music. You can do/use whatever you want to make sound, skew it, bend it, distort it, record thunder, dogs howling, whatever. After you're done, I want to come as close as possible to what you made. I also think you can get too much of a tube thing. If there was a lot of tubes used on the artist's end, adding more on the listeners end will, obviously, overdo it. It's saturation. Because if an album made by using a lot of tubes is only good to you through your one more tube, then albums made with no tubes are beyond help.

I think everything else is like, say, watching paintings through blue-tinted glasses.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, tube and SS amps CAN sound so similar they cannot be told apart in a blind test.
Also they could differ in ways owners seem to enjoy.

While you can simulate all kinds of distortion and frequency response deviations to one's liking and simulate certain tubes it may still not be the same.
Using multiple tubes in a design means feedback is needed and leads to less distortion and wider frequency range.

For instance one will only simulate a certain tube or a certain tube amp with certain plugins.
Those plugins are tunable of course but primarily intended to emulate certain instrument amps, devices and even mics.
It is mostly about simulation of overload characteristics.
They usually are not designed to emulate certain hifi amps which will have very different characteristics than instrument amps and can even be indistinguishable from SS when not driven near max. output power levels.

A second thing that is hard to simulate and IMO has more impact than some added harmonics with the 'special amps' is the output resistance of these amps. The effect this has is completely speaker dependent.

Hifi and studio gear are different things with a different purpose.

And yes, a LOT is about the looks, weight and visible tubes (in all forms and sizes) and those aspects, very likely, alter the perception more than the actual signal change.
Decades ago I had an old tube amp chassis. Removed the guts (it was quite broken). Connected the heaters and built in a cheap SS amp.
Whenever I had a visitor I now and then connected it in the system and proceeded to blabber on about how magical tubes were.
All people 'heard' the described tube sound and preferred it, only one did not like it and he later said he hated tubes.
So yeah... a LOT of it is psychological but ... I am quite sure people that buy this kind of stuff are looking for a 'more enjoyable sound' and care less about signal fidelity .. or they just buy it for bragging rights or people telling them it is the best.

 

[killdozzer]

Yes, tube and SS amps CAN sound so similar they cannot be told apart in a blind test.
Also they could differ in ways owners seem to enjoy.

While you can simulate all kinds of distortion and frequency response deviations to one's liking and simulate certain tubes it may still not be the same.

For instance one will only simulate a certain tube or a certain tube amp with certain plugins.
Those plugins are tunable of course but primarily intended to emulate certain instrument amps, devices and even mics.
It is mostly about simulation of overload characteristics.
They usually are not designed to emulate certain hifi amps which will have very different characteristics than instrument amps and can even be indistinguishable from SS when not driven near max. output power levels.

A second thing that is hard to simulate and IMO has more impact than some added harmonics with the 'special amps' is the output resistance of these amps. The effect this has is completely speaker dependent.

Hifi and studio gear are different things with a different purpose.

And yes, a LOT is about the looks, weight and visible tubes (in all forms and sizes) and those aspects, very likely, alter the perception more than the actual signal change.
Decades ago I had an old tube amp chassis. Removed the guts (it was quite broken). Connected the heaters and built in a cheap SS amp.
Whenever I had a visitor I now and then connected it in the system and proceeded to blabber on about how magical tubes were.
All people 'heard' the described tube sound and preferred it, only one did not like it and he later said he hated tubes.
So yeah... a LOT of it is psychological but ... I am quite sure people that buy this kind of stuff are looking for a 'more enjoyable sound' and care less about signal fidelity .. or they just buy it for bragging rights or people telling them it is the best.

But I'm curious, wouldn't you assume, if we for a moment agreed it's fine to assume, that people buying tube amps for home audio are not buying them to have them indistinguishable from solid state?

Let me just say, and this is the first time me saying this, I'd respect those who want a specific sound more. I mean, even very properly designed tube amps DO burn through tubes. So, if not for a sound you like, then why. I can see the trade off; well, I'll replace tubes, but I'll have my sound, but the "trade off" well I'll replace tubes...

 

[Anton D]

.. or they just buy it for bragging rights or people telling them it is the best.

You actually know audiophiles who shop this way?

I guess it's possible, I know SINADologists who brag about their inaudible reductions in distortion.

 

[rwortman]

After you're done, I want to come as close as possible to what you made.

Then you better find out what monitors and/or amps the mix and mastering engineer used, what the room treatments where and what the room curves looked like.

 

[krabapple]

Because more tubes makes the music more tubular.

 

[rwortman]

To answer the original question: Audio is supposed to be enjoyable—fun. Instead of theorizing how people that use tube amps are ignorant, stupid, trying to impress, gullible, etc. Buy a used tube amp and try it. Sell it when you‘re done. You will have lost nothing and maybe you will hear something you like.

 

[antcollinet]

Why do flamingos stand on one leg?

Wait..what..

You mean they have more than one?

Chinese hot pot comes to mind.

Or steak on a stone.

Because more tubes makes the music more tubular.

Ahh - you mean like this?

 

[killdozzer]

Then you better find out what monitors and/or amps the mix and mastering engineer used, what the room treatments where and what the room curves looked like.

The most common misconception, but I'm not surprised to see it praised by our King of Soft Trolling.

 

[killdozzer]

The music studios I've worked in were pretty much all solid state end-to-end. Extra limiters, compressors, reverb etc. could be patched into the chain. Most of that was also solid state. Sensible reasons such as cost, heat, reliability, size drive a lot of decisions.

I think there's a bit of a myth about how much recorded sound since the 70s has gone through a tube stage.

But I think in this case it also means like a guitar amp. Like using some Mesa Boogies or some Fender amps with tubes.

 

[majingotan]

Because more tubes makes the music more tubular.

Not a fan of tubular, I prefer clincher so I can easily repair it on the spot when I get a flat on the road

 

[killdozzer]

I am not far from thinking so too, because out of our five senses of hearing, smell, taste, touch and sight, sight dominates and strongly influences all the others. So as long as a tube amp is pleasing to the eye and very expensive as is often the case, the placebo effect plays a significant role in perception. especially since this perception is actually and truly different.

If I said it's a bit shameful to see people today still believing we have five senses but no surprise to see it goes hand in hand with "my opinion is the same as a fact" crowd, would that make me a bad person?

 

[krabapple]

To answer the original question: Audio is supposed to be enjoyable—fun. Instead of theorizing how people that use tube amps are ignorant, stupid, trying to impress, gullible, etc. Buy a used tube amp and try it. Sell it when you‘re done. You will have lost nothing and maybe you will hear something you like.

If I can buy one cheap enough, and sell it dear enough, yes, that would definitely be something I'd like about a tube amp. I don't think I'd hear it, though.

 

[SIY]

But I'm curious, wouldn't you assume, if we for a moment agreed it's fine to assume, that people buying tube amps for home audio are not buying them to have them indistinguishable from solid state?

Whether that's the motivation or not, it ends up being true the majority of the time. Of course, that inconvenient fact is avoided by doing uncontrolled comparison...