Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Galliardist]

OK

So by your definition this is a passive speaker:

https://jblpro.com/en/products/m2

@ MarkS Bad??? Why?? Or is that sarcasm??

Rob

Ah, so we're playing "trap the idiot" here, are we?

I'll remind you what you specified:

So what would you call a speaker system that uses a protection capacitor and passive attenuation on the compression driver but nothing on any other drivers???

Rob

And point out that the M2 does not use "nothing on any other drivers".

From the brochure:

HARMAN Crown I-Tech power amplifiers complete the M2 system, providing greater than a kilowatt of clean power to the 2216Nd woofer, and more than enough power for the D2 driver. Working in concert with the M2’s revolutionary Image Control waveguide, BSS® OMNIDRIVE HD™ digital signal processing in the Crown I-Tech allows the implementation of an ideal crossover, while providing the option for storage of EQ presets.

Of course, you can forgo the electronics. In which case you have a box with a couple of drivers and that passive attenuation - a passive box.

 

[Robh3606]

Ah, so we're playing "trap the idiot" here, are we?

I'll remind you what you specified:


And point out that the M2 does not use "nothing on any other drivers".

From the brochure:



Of course, you can forgo the electronics. In which case you have a box with a couple of drivers and that passive attenuation - a passive box.

I was not playing trap the idiot and my wording was off. Should have said active also your are correct nothing was a poor choice but I knew what I meant and missed the mark. The point was even with passive components in the mix you can still have an active line level system.

JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

reconingspeakers.com

Rob

 

[jhaider]

The M2 is an oddball since it allows mix and match with amplifiers the way passive speakers do, and it has a passive tweeter protection network built in. Why argue about definitions?

Why are people getting fixated on the physical location or inclusion of the amplifier? KH 420, M2, and LX mini/LX521show how dumb that is:

Does KH 420 jump categories depending on whether the amp is unbolted?

Does M2 change categories if you use an Intonato (buy mine!)/BSS with whatever amps or a Crown DSP amp? Do Linkwitz change if you use the Magic whatever box vs miniDSP + amps?

It’s really very simple: “active” is crossover functions substantially prior to amplification in the signal chain

 

[Ron Texas]

@jhaider do we have to be so worried about categories as this thread suggests? There are outstanding active and passive speakers at all kinds of price points. There are also lousy ones. It's really all about results and not how one get's there.

 

[Robh3606]

As soon as you introduce a line level crossover be it Analog or Digital you have an active speaker system. Any system that uses compression drivers will also always have a series capacitor to protect against DC and turn on thumps from the amps. Passive components have been used as part of "active systems" from the very beginning.

Where that amps are is irrelevant.

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

The phrase “active speaker with passive crossover” is just nonsense.

Actually that's nonsense. When you bi-amp a system many times parts of the passive crossover stay in place such as attenuation and response tailoring. When you bi-amp you introduce a line level crossover and system is now an active one.

Rob

 

[Ron Texas]

Actually that's nonsense. When you bi-amp a system many times parts of the passive crossover stay in place such as attenuation and response tailoring. When you bi-amp you introduce a line level crossover and system is now an active one.

Rob

I think it's a hybrid.

 

[Robh3606]

I think it's a hybrid.

OK I can see that. Let say you have a vintage JBL monitor system running in bi-amp mode. If someone asked you:

Are you running them active or passive??

how would you answer??

Rob

 

[Ron Texas]

OK I can see that. Let say you have a vintage JBL monitor system running in bi-amp mode. If someone asked you:

Are you running them active or passive??

how would you answer??

Rob

My answer is it's not important how one classifies a speaker. Besides, I'm not familiar with vintage JBL monitors, the exact model is unknown, and how much work the passive components are doing is unknown.

 

[Galliardist]

OK I can see that. Let say you have a vintage JBL monitor system running in bi-amp mode. If someone asked you:

Are you running them active or passive??

how would you answer??

Rob

Firstly, I have no intention of owning vintage JBL monitors, so nobody will ever ask me.

Are you active or passive bi-amping in this example? You forgot to say. The correct method for active bi-amping is to remove any passive crossover. Sure, you can leave other parts of the crossover network in place to do other work, but the speaker then gets defined just like the M2. Of course, you could leave the passive crossover in place. Then the speaker is passive. Adding an unnecessary active crossover as well does what, precisely?

If you passive bi-amp, then it's passive of course. And if you are doing anything unusual, it's probably best to describe the system in detail, rather than stick a single word description onto it - or indeed expect someone else to guess what you want them to say about it.

 

[jhaider]

The correct method for active bi-amping is to remove any passive crossover.

No. That’s dumb. Why would you risk blowing a high-sensitivity tweeter or excerbating hiss by tossing protection caps (which may form a pole of the final xover - that’s just smart design) or padding?

Likewise, if a passive notch reduces distortion compared to an equivalent active filter (as suggested by a Purifi paper) why not do that?

Hence a reasonable non-stupid definition of “active” is substantially all the filtering effected prior to amplification. Putting everything before the amps is building a time bomb - one turn on/turn off thump and you could lose a tweeter.

 

[tmtomh]

OK I can see that. Let say you have a vintage JBL monitor system running in bi-amp mode. If someone asked you:

Are you running them active or passive??

how would you answer??

Rob

I'm not quite sure what your objective is with this series of comments you're making. If your point is that there are situations where a speaker configuration is not entirely passive or entirely active, or that there are hybrid setups possible, okay, sure, that's reasonable and makes sense.

But if your point is that the existence of these hybrid setups means the passive-active distinction and definitions are useless and that it's all a big continuum, then I'd have to say that's silly and not useful. It's in the nature of any linguistic or conceptual classification that one can posit situations that don't neatly or fully fit into the classifications, or edge cases where the categories break down. That doesn't inevitably mean the categories are fatally flawed or of no use - in fact, most of the time abandoning the categories because of their flaws simply makes it more difficult to understand and talk about the reality that we're trying to discuss.

 

[Robh3606]

Are you active or passive bi-amping in this example? You forgot to say. The correct method for active bi-amping is to remove any passive crossover. Sure, you can leave other parts of the crossover network in place to do other work, but the speaker then gets defined just like the M2.

All of the vintage JBL used active line level crossovers. Passive bi-amping is not bi-amping at all.

So how do you define the M2 as Passive or Active???

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

I'm not quite sure what your objective is with this series of comments you're making. If your point is that there are situations where a speaker configuration is not entirely passive or entirely active, or that there are hybrid setups possible, okay, sure, that's reasonable and makes sense.

But if your point is that the existence of these hybrid setups means the passive-active distinction and definitions are useless and that it's all a big continuum, then I'd have to say that's silly and not useful. It's in the nature of any linguistic or conceptual classification that one can posit situations that don't neatly or fully fit into the classifications, or edge cases where the categories break down. That doesn't inevitably mean the categories are fatally flawed or of no use - in fact, most of the time abandoning the categories because of their flaws simply makes it more difficult to understand and talk about the reality that we're trying to discuss.

It's really simple add a line level crossover you are now active. It doesn't matter if there are passive components in the mix.

These terms go back 50's/60's long before you had the multitude of all in one box speaker systems that are available today.

In the 70's if you ran an active system or bi-amped you used an active line level crossover. Really simple.

Rob

 

[Galliardist]

All of the vintage JBL used active line level crossovers. Passive bi-amping is not bi-amping at all.

So how do you define the M2 as Passive or Active???

Rob

Actually I define myself as an idiot for continuing this conversation. You got me. Feel better?

Passive bi-amping is absolutely an allowable activity, and I believe there are people on this forum who do just that.

If you must force me, the M2 is a box with some stuff in. It's what is used outside that defines the system as active or passive in that case. Assuming it is used with the electronics specified in the manual, it's an active system. The components in the box don't constitute its crossover network, even though you may have another speaker where a capacitor is used to aid the actual crossover, and there are speakers where that is the case.

No. That’s dumb. Why would you risk blowing a high-sensitivity tweeter or introducing hiss by tossing protection caps (which may form a pole of the final xover - that’s just smart design) or padding?

Likewise, if a passive notch reduces distortion compared to an equivalent active filter (as suggested by a Purifi paper) why not do that?

Hence a reasonable non-stupid definition of “active” is substantially all the filtering effected prior to amplification.

I'm happy to accept that as a correction. Keeping notch filters is not the same as keeping the crossover filter itself, though, which is what I was trying to get at. And presumably you could add back or keep protection without keeping an entire pole of the crossover.

"substantially all" doesn't read right either, but I get what you mean, so it'll do.

 

[Snoopy]

Active speakers with DSP and streaming are definitely the future. Especially for living room TV setups and desk setups.

But isn't the same like with tubes and vinyl.... The distortion might not even matter after taking the room, music into account.

So passive speakers are probably plenty good enough for most people in most scenarios.

 

[Robh3606]

Actually I define myself as an idiot for continuing this conversation. You got me. Feel better?

Passive bi-amping is absolutely an allowable activity, and I believe there are people on this forum who do just that.

If you must force me, the M2 is a box with some stuff in. It's what is used outside that defines the system as active or passive in that case. Assuming it is used with the electronics specified in the manual, it's an active system. The components in the box don't constitute its crossover network, even though you may have another speaker where a capacitor is used to aid the actual crossover, and there are speakers where that is the case.


I'm happy to accept that as a correction. Keeping notch filters is not the same as keeping the crossover filter itself, though, which is what I was trying to get at. And presumably you could add back or keep protection without keeping an entire pole of the crossover.

"substantially all" doesn't read right either, but I get what you mean, so it'll do.

Hello

FYI that protection capacitor is used as a pole in the crossover and is accounted for in the DSP. If you tried to run the M2 without it it wouldn't work properly. As far as passive bi-amping I understand it is used but to really bi-amp you need to use a line level crossover. Running both amps full signal is a why bother at all when you can just run one. Different thread for that one.

Rob

 

[tmtomh]

It's really simple add a line level crossover you are now active. It doesn't matter if there are passive components in the mix.

These terms go back 50's/60's long before you had the multitude of all in one box speaker systems that are available today.

In the 70's if you ran an active system or bi-amped you used an active line level crossover. Really simple.

Rob

Okay, makes sense. Then maybe don't be so cryptic with your posts asking people, "if you have this resistor or capacitor here in the circuit, is it passive or active." Just say what you're getting at.

 

[Galliardist]

Hello

FYI that protection capacitor is used as a pole in the crossover and is accounted for in the DSP. If you tried to run the M2 without it it wouldn't work properly. As far as passive bi-amping I understand it is used but to really bi-amp you need to use a line level crossover. Running both amps full signal is a why bother at all when you can just run one. Different thread for that one.

Rob

FYI it hardly matters. You win. In fact all loudspeakers are active, because an active crossover could be in use no matter what is in the box. That’s incredibly liberating!

I’ll keep it alongside the other things I’ve had to accept from the forum this week, that aliens walk among us, and that vinyl is the superior playback medium after all. ASR is just so educational these days!

 

[Newman]

Just shows what happens when pedantry is overemphasised.

An active speaker is one where the crossover is substantively line level and there is a power amp for each drive unit.

It’s a workable definition, not a hard-core definition, so don’t search for edge-case exceptions.

cheers