Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Purité Audio]

Hey Keith … Your thoughts on the 8Cs vs Mantas? Which do you prefer and why?

you know I am going to give one or my non- committal replies, both are excellent REQ integration
/Roon ready/ and now Bacch make the 8Cs pretty much complete.
The Bacch has made me seriously consider stocking Theoretica’s hardware .
If you have a large room and like to play really loudly then the Mantas.
Keith

 

[MKR]

you know I am going to give one or my non- committal replies, both are excellent REQ integration
/Roon ready/ and now Bacch make the 8Cs pretty much complete.
The Bacch has made me seriously consider stocking Theoretica’s hardware .
If you have a large room and like to play really loudly then the Mantas.
Keith

Thanks … or maybe I just wait for the 12Cs … of course Soundfield still definitely on the radar. I will say the Bacch is a very interesting proposition, though you can get that for any speaker, but the integration on the D&Ds is very cool. By the way, what are your thoughts on the Kiis vs 8Cs? I auditioned the Kiis multiple times and just found them to be “meh” vs 8Cs. Not to mention I am not at all a fan of the Kii clunky remote. I never did hear the Kii with the BXT though. Maybe that would have been a better experience.

At this point my guess is at the end of my long quest the choice will likely be Soundfield or the 12Cs

 

[Purité Audio]

Personally I prefer the 8Cs I really find them perfect for nearly all use case scenarios, BLTs again if you have a larger room and the price isn’t an issue.
It will be interesting to hear the ‘12s’ in my room at my 3metre listening distance compared to the 8Cs I presume the extra real estate will allow the cardioid to extend further, distortion levels will be much lower, whether that will be audible ( didn’t hear any difference with the BXTs)
Interesting times!
Keith

 

[gnarly]

Here are my proposed definitions:

"Passive Speaker": crossover in between power amp and drivers. The speaker is unpowered.

"Active Speaker": The speaker is powered. There are two types:
- "Active speaker with passive crossovers": speakers which are powered, with the power amp built into the speaker, and the crossover in between amp and drivers.
- "Active speaker with active crossovers": speakers which are powered, with all the electronics built in to the speaker, with the drivers directly connected to the amps, and a separate amp channel for each driver, with each amp channel driven by its own crossover network.

"Active crossover": All powered crossovers. There are two types:
- "Active analog crossover": the crossover network is analog.
- "Active digital crossover": the crossover network is digital.

I like the most common usage I see in prosound,
where passive means there is a LCR crossover spitting an amplifiers' output among drivers,
and active means there are line level crossovers splitting their outputs among separate amplifiers, each directly coupled to a driver (section).

Powered (or often used self-powered) means the amplifier(s) are in the speaker, requiring AC to the speaker

The two ideas, active vs passive, and powered vs not, each stand on their own.
It's a simpler more direct logic i think.



My 2c

 

[DearSX]

I like the most common usage I see in prosound,
where passive means there is a LCR crossover spitting an amplifiers' output among drivers,
and active means there are line level crossovers splitting their outputs among separate amplifiers, each directly coupled to a driver (section).

Powered (or often used self-powered) means the amplifier(s) are in the speaker, requiring AC to the speaker

The two ideas, active vs passive, and powered vs not, each stand on their own.
It's a simpler more direct logic i think.



My 2c

I'm looking at all of the above, like I use both active and passive speakers and add extra DSP/EQ settings in the form of apo eq

 

[Robh3606]

It's still not exactly what I'd call high distortion. I've used those very speakers, they get louder than I care to ever listen without a hint of strain.

That's good! I have seen/heard others that were SPL was limited because of the EQ. They don't necessarily distort because of limiting but the can noticeably compress the output. That something you may not catch if you don't have another reference to listen too that does not compress the signal. It also may not be obvious depending on source material. There is lots of music out there that does not have lots of real content below 40 Hz.

My point was not against a specific speaker just that there are consequences to using EQ in general especially on the Plus side.

 

[Muddywaters]

Personally I prefer the 8Cs I really find them perfect for nearly all use case scenarios, BLTs again if you have a larger room and the price isn’t an issue.
It will be interesting to hear the ‘12s’ in my room at my 3metre listening distance compared to the 8Cs I presume the extra real estate will allow the cardioid to extend further, distortion levels will be much lower, whether that will be audible ( didn’t hear any difference with the BXTs)
Interesting times!
Keith

Do you find the 8C’s lacking in some respect at 3m? How large is the room they are in?

 

[Purité Audio]

Do you find the 8C’s lacking in some respect at 3m? How large is the room they are in?

No not lacking anything, perhaps if you were sitting far further away, I have a customer who has to sit seven metres away and they sound fine there and are easily loud enough.
Keith

 

[Galliardist]

Here are my proposed definitions:

"Passive Speaker": crossover in between power amp and drivers. The speaker is unpowered.

"Active Speaker": The speaker is powered. There are two types:
- "Active speaker with passive crossovers": speakers which are powered, with the power amp built into the speaker, and the crossover in between amp and drivers.
- "Active speaker with active crossovers": speakers which are powered, with all the electronics built in to the speaker, with the drivers directly connected to the amps, and a separate amp channel for each driver, with each amp channel driven by its own crossover network.

"Active crossover": All powered crossovers. There are two types:
- "Active analog crossover": the crossover network is analog.
- "Active digital crossover": the crossover network is digital.

I presume that you will realise from my previous posts that I don’t agree wth your definitions. If a speaker has a passive crossover it should be called a passive speaker. I don’t care if the amps are in their own case, in the speaker box, or in orbit around Jupiter.

The phrase “active speaker with passive crossover” is just nonsense.

 

[dfuller]

Here are my proposed definitions:

"Passive Speaker": crossover in between power amp and drivers. The speaker is unpowered.

"Active Speaker": The speaker is powered. There are two types:
- "Active speaker with passive crossovers": speakers which are powered, with the power amp built into the speaker, and the crossover in between amp and drivers.
- "Active speaker with active crossovers": speakers which are powered, with all the electronics built in to the speaker, with the drivers directly connected to the amps, and a separate amp channel for each driver, with each amp channel driven by its own crossover network.

"Active crossover": All powered crossovers. There are two types:
- "Active analog crossover": the crossover network is analog.
- "Active digital crossover": the crossover network is digital.

Definitely wouldn't agree with this. Active speaker implies active crossover.

"Powered speaker" is the term for what you describe as an "active speaker with passive crossover".

 

[tmtomh]

I don't know why some folks are making this so complicated. I can't be alone in having repeatedly seen the following two terms used to describe speakers - in online discussions and by manufacturers and/or various web sites and YouTube channels:

• Powered
• Active

In my experience, powered is used to refer to speakers with built-in amplification: they take an interconnect and/or wireless connection rather than speaker cables.

Active is used to refer to speakers with built-in amplification for each driver, in other words with crossover networks that come before the amplification in the circuit.

The difference between these two might not be clear to some consumers, and some manufacturers and/or hi-fi content creators might not do anything to make the difference clear - for example an active speaker might be referred to as a powered speaker because whoever wrote the copy doesn't know the difference or doesn't realize that amplified speakers exist in both active and passive crossover variants. But that does not mean we need different terms or that the terms we have are inadequate.

If you bi-wire a passive speaker - two amps but the internal crossover still in the circuit - it's still a passive speaker.

If you bi-amp a passive speaker - two amps and the internal crossover is removed from the circuit and a replacement crossover network is placed upstream - then it's a bi-amped passive speaker but I suppose you could call the entire thing as a whole an "active speaker setup" if you like. But it's still not an active speaker because the amplification (not to mention the crossover network) is not inside the speaker: if you sell the speaker to someone else, they're not getting an active speaker. They're getting a passive speaker with a disabled crossover network.

 

[gnarly]

68 pages and counting.....
The reason it's difficult to 'define' is because there are so many variations.
I've done many speakers where the crossover is at line level and passive, and does not utilize powered circuitry. A passive, line-level crossover. Would that be an "active" speaker??

Does your passive, line level crossover, drive multiple amps after the xover?
I would surely think so...
If so, then a big yes, it is an active speaker.

As many have said, the form of the line-level xover, be it DSP, analog opamp circuity, or just a LCR like you did, does not matter towards the definition of active.

Single amp vs multi-amp is all one needs to know, active vs passive.
Just like speaker plugging into AC or not, satisfies powered vs not.

Audiophiles are too wrapped up in definitions, without considering the context. Even "active" and "passive" are not well defined in audiophile parlance.

See, that's the thing. I sincerely think they are well defined. Maybe not commonly understood, but definitely well defined.
And i humbly submit we do each other a disservice when we don't acknowledge common well-defined definitions.

 

[Robh3606]

I presume that you will realise from my previous posts that I don’t agree wth your definitions. If a speaker has a passive crossover it should be called a passive speaker. I don’t care if the amps are in their own case, in the speaker box, or in orbit around Jupiter.

The phrase “active speaker with passive crossover” is just nonsense.

So what would you call a speaker system that uses a protection capacitor and passive attenuation on the compression driver but nothing on any other drivers???

Rob

 

[Newman]

Here are my proposed definitions:

"Passive Speaker": crossover in between power amp and drivers. The speaker is unpowered.

"Active Speaker": The speaker is powered. There are two types:
- "Active speaker with passive crossovers": speakers which are powered, with the power amp built into the speaker, and the crossover in between amp and drivers.
- "Active speaker with active crossovers": speakers which are powered, with all the electronics built in to the speaker, with the drivers directly connected to the amps, and a separate amp channel for each driver, with each amp channel driven by its own crossover network.

"Active crossover": All powered crossovers. There are two types:
- "Active analog crossover": the crossover network is analog.
- "Active digital crossover": the crossover network is digital.

This still doesn't cover outboard amplification active speakers, nor passive line-level crossovers.

Nor, to be completist, single driver speakers. What's the difference between a single driver passive speaker, and a single driver active speaker with outboard amplification?

That's why I think being definitive is challenging, and prefer to describe common or conventional usage, and say "plus edge cases".

cheers

 

[dfuller]

This still doesn't cover outboard amplification active speakers, nor passive line-level crossovers.

Nor, to be completist, single driver speakers. What's the difference between a single driver passive speaker, and a single driver active speaker with outboard amplification?

That's why I think being definitive is challenging, and prefer to describe common or conventional usage, and say "plus edge cases".

cheers

An active full range single driver has any EQ done prior to the amp.

That's primarily what separates active from passive - the filters are before the limited range amps instead of after one broadband amp.

 

[Galliardist]

So what would you call a speaker system that uses a protection capacitor and passive attenuation on the compression driver but nothing on any other drivers???

Rob

Isn’t your use of the word passive a bit of a giveaway here?

 

[jhaider]

So what would you call a speaker system that uses a protection capacitor and passive attenuation on the compression driver but nothing on any other drivers???

Rob

Sensible

(Assuming the word “active” was intended before “speaker!”)

 

[MarkS]

Bad

 

[Robh3606]

Isn’t your use of the word passive a bit of a giveaway here?

OK

So by your definition this is a passive speaker:

https://jblpro.com/en/products/m2

@ MarkS Bad??? Why?? Or is that sarcasm??

Rob

 

[Ron Texas]

The M2 is an oddball since it allows mix and match with amplifiers the way passive speakers do, and it has a passive tweeter protection network built in. Why argue about definitions?