Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[Robin L]

Nope. I've never used a Sony standalone ADC.

I don't know how it compared to what was built into the DATs.

HORRIBLE!
There was a 14 bit option, that's how early this model was. Used it around 1988. DAT machines had better ADCs, my t.c. electronics M2000 effects box had a real nice one. I'm sure the ADCs available now are mostly audibly transparent.

 

[krabapple]

When I was performing remasterings of music soundtracks for several films older films, one very famous movie I worked with had tape masters which were unusable. Therefore many music selections in the film's theatrical re-release were derived from vinyl of the music, played on my Thorens TD-125MKII. I meticulously removed all the ticks and pops using the manual waveform 're-drawing' tool in ProTools - it took hours and days. I'm sure this film is in most of your collections.

was synching this audio to the film video much of an issue?

 

[krabapple]

Well, as regards to dynamic range:

Maybe.

If the musical content is within the dynamic range capabilities of LP, then the LP itself isn't the constraining factor on DR.

Dynamic range of LP is ~65-70 dB, which is more than many genres of music need.

There are still other LP issues (IGD, w&f, bass mono, etc), but dynamic range of LP is pretty adequate for many genres of music, although not all (e.g. large scale orchestral).

That's at the 'loudness' end of the dynamic range. At the other -- the 'silence' end -- it's a contest between the tape hiss and vinyl hiss, for analog sources.

 

[krabapple]

Yeah, maybe.

Lots of dumb stuff happened when CDs were new.

But surely they would have fixed that by now unless they lost the original Simon and Garfunkel masters completely.

and had no copies

 

[Snarfie]

Also....

If the original source is analog tape, you're still constrained by that, anyway.

15 IPS analog tape DR isn't even close the 96 dB of CD. *Maybe* 70-75 dB with NR.

There are a lot of things that analog sucks at, but except for bombastic classical pieces, DR on playback (DR during editing is a different issue) isn't the weakest link in the chain when it comes to capturing most music.

Wow & flutter is more bothersome to me, especially as a bass player.

Tremolo can get really jacked up by bad w&f.

Interesting comparison between the same vinyl an digital track regarding DR measurment.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

was synching this audio to the film video much of an issue?

Holding sync was not an issue; individually, there was not time enough for each music cue to drift enough to be noticed. Music cues in general can be looser in sync than, for instance, a gunshot or dialog. In any event, the TD-125 has a variable speed control, so even if sync was an issue, I could compensate, but I didn't have to. Also, in ProTools micro-edits can be made to correct for sync when necessary, for instance when something was recorded 'pulled down' and the audio for the film wasn't.

 

[watchnerd]

That's at the 'loudness' end of the dynamic range. At the other -- the 'silence' end -- it's a contest between the tape hiss and vinyl hiss, for analog sources.

Sure.

But tape hiss doesn't automatically go away when you take an analog master and put it on CD.

 

[krabapple]

Sure.

But tape hiss doesn't automatically go away when you take an analog master and put it on CD.

For sure. But when you put it on an LP, you are adding vinyl hiss to playback. That can reduce DR, compared to CD.

 

[watchnerd]

For sure. But when you put it on an LP, you are adding vinyl hiss to playback. That can reduce DR, compared to CD.

It can be especially audible during quiet passages, yes.

Although I have some albums where I hear the tape hiss in addition / separately from groove noise, so I'm not sure if they're purely additive, as opposed to occupying different spectra.

But during a lot of genres of music, it (groove noise / tape hiss) can also be buried by masking effects of the music itself.

 

[MattHooper]

View attachment 108368

[curmudgeon mode]

Aggh, that one again!

At this point, if I were given a trip in a Time Machine I'd bypass going back to take out baby Hitler to instead be transported to
the creation of that cartoon, and spill ink all over it, before it could get out into the world. That way I wouldn't have to see over and over in every single audio forum and in every discussion about vinyl. It's become like the same guy barging in to every party loudly telling the same joke. "Yeah, I've heard that one..."

[/curmudgeon mode]

 

[mhardy6647]

[curmudgeon mode]

Aggh, that one again!

At this point, if I were given a trip in a Time Machine I'd bypass going back to take out baby Hitler to instead be transported to
the creation of that cartoon, and spill ink all over it, before it could get out into the world. That way I wouldn't have to see over and over in every single audio forum and in every discussion about vinyl. It's become like the same guy barging in to every party loudly telling the same joke. "Yeah, I've heard that one..."

[/curmudgeon mode]

Hey, I'm right there with you, buddy!

Besides... those two ya-hoos in that cartoon musta never spent any quality time with tape...

 

[mhardy6647]

here, let's go vintage with the humo(u)r, too!

 

[watchnerd]

here, let's go vintage with the humo(u)r, too!

View attachment 108396

I apparently have undiagnosed reading disorders because my brain, on first read, inserted the correct 'viscous'.

I had to re-read it to get the joke.

 

[tmtomh]

Although I have some albums where I hear the tape hiss in addition / separately from groove noise, so I'm not sure if they're purely additive, as opposed to occupying different spectra.

But during a lot of genres of music, it (groove noise / tape hiss) can also be buried by masking effects of the music itself.

Spectra, along with phase, determine the extent to which groove noise and tape hiss are additive, subtractive, or neither ("neither" meaning they are distinguishable as two separate sounds, which is not quite the same thing as them being additive).

And yes, a lot of music is tremendously effective at masking noise (and modest levels of distortion for that matter).

I believe there are still actually some in-print CDs out there made from LP production masters. I agree the number of such titles is smaller than it was in the 1980s. But some CDs have never been remastered and the original 1980s masterings are still being pressed to brand new pressings to this day. In addition, for reasons I don't quite understand some titles that got remastered continued to be put out in their old, unremastered versions on new pressings in Europe for years, even decades, after the remasters came out in North America.

And finally, there are a small number, admittedly probably quite few, of brand new CD releases/masterings that use LP cutting masters because other tape sources cannot be located.

 

[watchnerd]

And finally, there are a small number, admittedly probably quite few, of brand new CD releases/masterings that use LP cutting masters because other tape sources cannot be located.

I'd be curious to read more about examples of this.

That's a whole different ball of wax than regular 'AAD'.

 

[Sal1950]

The LP and CD version of Tom Petty's Mojo sound the same.

Really, if you can't hear the surface noise, pops and clicks, wow & flutter, rumble, outer to inner groove loss of detail, off center holes, etc
you need some training on listening skills.

 

[MattHooper]

Really, if you can't hear the surface noise, pops and clicks, wow & flutter, rumble, outer to inner groove loss of detail, off center holes, etc
you need some training on listening skills.

I'm trying to train myself in the opposite direction. The more you know....the more you notice

 

[krabapple]

I'd be curious to read more about examples of this.

That's a whole different ball of wax than regular 'AAD'.

In the 80s, 90s and 2000s there was a newsletter called ICE that was all about upcoming CD releases. "The first CD was sourced from an LP-eq'd master, we've done way better now' was a common excuse given by inside sources for the release of a 'remastered from original master tapes' version starting in the 90s.

Unfortunately within a few years 'loudness wars' mastering was also underway, undercutting the sourcing advantage.

Leading to today where are (sometimes) promised original master sourcing plus no added compression....if we buy 'hi rez'. With no guarantees.

 

[levimax]

Unfortunately within a few years 'loudness wars' mastering was also underway, undercutting the sourcing advantage.

The biggest advantage of original LP's is that they used fresh master tapes as their source. Any tape source, original, LP master, or backup copy deteriorates over time to a greater or lesser degree even if they aren't lost, stolen, or burned in a fire.

 

[watchnerd]

The biggest advantage of original LP's is that they used fresh master tapes as their source. Any tape source, original, LP master, or backup copy deteriorates over time to a greater or lesser degree even if they aren't lost, stolen, or burned in a fire.

Or baked in the oven.