Which Sennheiser is best for FPS Gaming

[Robbo99999]

I know this an audio gear message board instead of a gaming board, but as the topic is gaming, I'll chime in.

Efforts at attempting to gain an advantage through headphones is probably not going to be productive, especially because some games (R6S is an example, unsure if they changed this), the sound propagation is WEIRD. I don't have the links nor the will to find them, but there's an old video demonstrating this.

I've seen some proposals at using EQ to emphasize foot steps and deemphasize other sounds, but I've not tried this.

You're much better off trying other things to improve your results. Do you have a proper mouse that doesn't have crazy accel so your aim is true? Have you figured out your sensitivity? Have you learned the maps and the way players navigate around it? How about spots and strats? Flick shots? Tracking?

As long as your headphone doesn't have major deficiencies like a weird frequency response or super high distortion (compared to cheap ones), you should be gold. Not saying I'm some top level tryhard, but I've stomped servers with nothing but a $50 HyperX Cloud as my audio gear. 99% of the time that I found players, it's because I know the frequented areas, where people take cover, how those areas are usually approached, and as a consequence, how to flank those areas and paths of approach.

Rainbow6, learn strats, set ups, angles, where to puncture walls and such.
CSGO, same, minus the murder holes.
Old school FPS, like Quake and UT, movement, timing item spawns, area denial, etc.
Also, if your happen to be playing BF4, learn the Zou Zou Jump. Look it up.

It's bound to come down to which game you're playing, in terms of how well/accurately they have created the "3D sound scape" within the game & how useful that soundscape is to the strategy of the game. In BF1 I find the way they've developed the "3D sound scape" to be fantastic, it's very immersive & positionally accurate when used with a good Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound system when you've setup the surround sound variables properly & combined with the right headphone - it's immersive & useful I find, and I'm quite sure they've developed it in that way on purpose. I'm quite sure that sound will not be as useful in some games though, especially if they've not done a good job at creating it or if it's not particularly useful for the game in question - it also won't be as useful if you've not setup the virtual surround sound variables properly or if you're using a headphone that doesn't work well for you (& with it). The type of virtual surround you use as well as how you set it up makes a big difference, thread on it here:

Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

Hi, I thought I'd start this thread as a gaming virtual 7.1 surround sound enthusiast in headphones. We can let this thread develop into whatever we like on the topic of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in headphones, and perhaps I'll continue to edit this first post with links to useful...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As you mention, of course there's loads of other things you can optimise besides sound to get better at an fps game, sound is just one of them and an extra advantage (as well as extra immersive enjoyment).

 

[Robbo99999]

First of all, hello to all ASR community members here!
My first time posting here, so a little greeting isn't bad to start with

Second of all, sorry for maybe hijacking this post, but since my question is gaming/Sennheiser/Beyerdynamic headphone related, i thought it was maybe best to ask in this post, instead of making a complete new topic again.

A good year ago i bought a SoundblasterX G6 DAC to pair with my current Sennheiser PC37x (bought in 2017 - EQ'd to Harman Curve). Sadly enough due to unforeseen circumstances i didn't really get the time to test my 'new' setup.
Now a year later we are back in business, but damn i'm so bored of my PC37x. It's been great in some ways, but damn after 6 years i just want something new!
And of course reading into all the audiophile posts doesn't make it any better.. Or maybe it just does..

Last week i gave in to the IEM side of life, and bought a pair of Crinacle's Truthear Zero's -for €50 why not test it-.
Compared to my PC37x, the sound straight away blew me away in COD and some music, but still having a hard time getting used to in ears. Still trying to find the best fit for the tips (Small, Medium, Large) so they stop irritating my ears. I will keep them and prolly use them from time to time, but i've always used headsets and atm they still have the best fitting/feeling for me.

As you can already guess, i'm looking for a new headphone -no headset anymore this time-, mostly for FPS gaming, some YT music and video's, that's it. Won't say i'm competitive, but hey, who doesn't like to win..
I know what has been stated in previous posts, and also by Crinacle for example, a new headphone isn't going to make me a pro, but hey i just want to enjoy my time when i'm gaming and enjoy it the fullest! So i'm not gonna go in to the whole 'debate' above here.

So after a 'little' introduction here, let's get to the point now.
A few years ago i tested a friends pair of DT990 pro's 250 ohms edition. Compared to my PC37x, i fell in love with the 990pro's (tested in PUBG and some music). Was the first time ever hearing a pair of BD, and since then i never stopped thinking 'bout them. Always been following BD since then.
A couple of months ago then i tested some pair of Sennheiser HD598's, they did sound better then my PC37x, but they felt kind of like missing some punch? I don't know how to say it in English, but they didn't give me goosebumps, they sounded to 'well behaved'? -They were also connected to a SBX G6 DAC-

So now that i'm on the search for a new pair, my thoughts have been going back and forwards to (open headphones)

1. Beyerdynamic DT 900 Pro x
2. Sennheiser HD560s

My main thoughts go out to the BD's, simply cause i can't stop thinking 'bout the 990pro's from back then. And also after watching a comparison from Fresh Reviews on YT regarding the soundstage, details, pinpoint accuracy in FPS games,.. between the 900 pro x and 560s.
But when you start reading you always encounter the HD560's too. Lot's of people call them the 'holy grail' for gaming and the price. And i know, sound is different to everyone, but i just can't make up my mind.
I know there are other brands/headphones out there, but to be completely honest, i made up my mind, it's going to be one of those 2. Plus atm i don't want to spend more money than the cost of the BD's. Sennies are almost half the price here in the EU, that's of course always nice.
I wouldn't mind the 560s, but i guess i feel kinda they won't blow me away too.. Just like my PC37x's never did, nor the HD598's. Probably you can't compare them to the 560s, but that's the way i feel 'bout it.

No matter which one i will finally get, they will run with my SBX G6 (low gain mode will just be fine i guess) and EQ'd to Harman Curve (or maybe some little adjustments for gaming like @Robbo99999 mentioned here before).
So is there anyone who can pull me over the line here in making a decision, 'cause i'm completely lost

Thanks in advance!

Hello & Welcome!

That's a very good gaming DAC, I use that one - it's the only version of Virtual Surround Sound that works for me in terms of getting correct frontal & behind head effects - Creative SBX.

You're in a quandary about which headphone to get, if you've ever read my posts you probably already know or think that I'm gonna recommend you the HD560s, especially as it's one of your choices you listed. It's probably my best gaming headphone, but I fairly often flip between K702 and HD560s for gaming, might go a few months with HD560s then try K702 again for a while......on balance HD560s most reliable. The frequency response of the DT900 Pro X looks ok for a gaming frequency response, it's got Harman Curve Treble with a bit more excess at the top end and a flat extended bass that I've mentioned before as being the best bass for me in gaming, so following is the frequency response of the 3 headphones you're involved with to compare:
Sennheiser PC37x

HD560s

DT990 Pro X

You can see the HD560s has more bass than your PC37x, so it should be more exciting for you in terms of listening to music, and I can use my HD560s at stock if I wanted to for listening to music, but I prefer it with EQ to Harman. You can see the flat extended bass of the DT990 Pro X, but to be honest if you look at the 20Hz point you can see both headphones are practically on the 0dB line, with the DT990 Pro X being just slightly better extended, but the HD560s has more bass further up the frequency range with a bit of a Harman Hump so quite possible the bass will sound more exciting in the HD560s. The HD560s has proven to be very reliable in the bass and can still get good bass response with small seal breaches, as measured by Solderdude on his diyaudioheaven website. Unit to unit variation is really quite good and low variation with the HD560s, so that means you can be more sure about what you're buying & what you're listening to in terms of frequency response, channel matching is also very good (I've measured 3 units of HD560s for channel matching) - and channel matching should be quite important for fps gaming in terms of accurately locating sound cues. I'd go with the HD560s, and it's half price of the DT 990 Pro X that you've been interested in. If you can buy the HD560s from somewhere that you know you can return it if you don't like it, then that's a pretty win win situation.....for instance from Amazon; then if you don't like the HD560s you can always do the same with the DT990 Pro X. You might just save yourself half the cost & end up with a better experience with the HD560s, it's possible! No guarantees, but that's my view.

EDIT: you could buy both on Amazon, and then return the one you don't like as much (or both of them if you hate both!).

 

[d3rF.]

Hello & Welcome!

That's a very good gaming DAC, I use that one - it's the only version of Virtual Surround Sound that works for me in terms of getting correct frontal & behind head effects - Creative SBX.

You're in a quandary about which headphone to get, if you've ever read my posts you probably already know or think that I'm gonna recommend you the HD560s, especially as it's one of your choices you listed. It's probably my best gaming headphone, but I fairly often flip between K702 and HD560s for gaming, might go a few months with HD560s then try K702 again for a while......on balance HD560s most reliable. The frequency response of the DT900 Pro X looks ok for a gaming frequency response, it's got Harman Curve Treble with a bit more excess at the top end and a flat extended bass that I've mentioned before as being the best bass for me in gaming, so following is the frequency response of the 3 headphones you're involved with to compare:
Sennheiser PC37x
View attachment 267933
HD560s
View attachment 267935
DT990 Pro X
View attachment 267934

You can see the HD560s has more bass than your PC37x, so it should be more exciting for you in terms of listening to music, and I can use my HD560s at stock if I wanted to for listening to music, but I prefer it with EQ to Harman. You can see the flat extended bass of the DT990 Pro X, but to be honest if you look at the 20Hz point you can see both headphones are practically on the 0dB line, with the DT990 Pro X being just slightly better extended, but the HD560s has more bass further up the frequency range with a bit of a Harman Hump so quite possible the bass will sound more exciting in the HD560s. The HD560s has proven to be very reliable in the bass and can still get good bass response with small seal breaches, as measured by Solderdude on his diyaudioheaven website. Unit to unit variation is really quite good and low variation with the HD560s, so that means you can be more sure about what you're buying & what you're listening to in terms of frequency response, channel matching is also very good (I've measured 3 units of HD560s for channel matching) - and channel matching should be quite important for fps gaming in terms of accurately locating sound cues. I'd go with the HD560s, and it's half price of the DT 990 Pro X that you've been interested in. If you can buy the HD560s from somewhere that you know you can return it if you don't like it, then that's a pretty win win situation.....for instance from Amazon; then if you don't like the HD560s you can always do the same with the DT990 Pro X. You might just save yourself half the cost & end up with a better experience with the HD560s, it's possible! No guarantees, but that's my view.

EDIT: you could buy both on Amazon, and then return the one you don't like as much (or both of them if you hate both!).

Well maybe i did a thing that i never thought of before, but good point you made there 'bout just ordering them both on Amazon
Let's say the order is already in and both units will be delivered tomorrow

Thanks for all the explanation! Solderdude on his diyaudioheaven website was completely new to me, but damn there's a lot to read! So i know what i'll be doing the next coming days, besides extensive testing the 2 units!
Now regarding the testing.. How should i approach this? Fore sure i will fire up some FPS games (COD MW2, BF4, RoN) and some RDR2. And some YT stuff, but are there any other ways maybe? I'm completely new to this 'audiophile' scene, so i better ask before being stupid.
Also should i straight away EQ them to Harman curve? Or should i just keep a flat EQ for testing?
A quick and maybe stupid question 'bout Harman curve -Oratory1990- but what is the correct website now, 'cause i found two, but with different EQ results..
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990/harman_over-ear_2018 & https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/

One last thing regarding the SBX G6, in your signature and some other posts around here, i indeed noticed you use this one too and are very satisficed with the Virtual Surround Sound. I must say, i can't get my head around all the options in the SBX profiles. I tried a lot of settings, -probably wrong- but i just don't 'feel' it with the VSS..
And again, i know there are people for and against VSS, but that is for everyone themselves to find out. I want to find out if it fits me, but i'm afraid i need some guidance to set it up properly..
Atm i even went back to full basic, in the 'Playback tab' i just put it back to headphones - stereo (no 5.1 or 7.1 surround). Same in Windows Playback Sound, but yea that syncs with the SBX settings.. And i must say, it works good to me, BUT i think i can get more out of the SBX, so at least i want to give it a try and see where it brings me.
So the SBX settings are just complete standard now, and i've got PEACE APO running for the Harman curve EQ.

I know i'm asking a lot here, my two posts almost fill up half a page here , but i thought i could just ask or you or someone else can help me out setting it up?
I did my research before, and did test multiple settings (headphones on 7.1 in the playback tab, surround in the profiles on 30-33 or 67 and so on, did the virtual barber test -damn that thing gave me goosebumps the first time -), but for me it seemed to do more bad than good.. Or maybe my current PC37x headset is just not made for it..

Once again, thanks already!

 

[Robbo99999]

Well maybe i did a thing that i never thought of before, but good point you made there 'bout just ordering them both on Amazon
Let's say the order is already in and both units will be delivered tomorrow

Thanks for all the explanation! Solderdude on his diyaudioheaven website was completely new to me, but damn there's a lot to read! So i know what i'll be doing the next coming days, besides extensive testing the 2 units!
Now regarding the testing.. How should i approach this? Fore sure i will fire up some FPS games (COD MW2, BF4, RoN) and some RDR2. And some YT stuff, but are there any other ways maybe? I'm completely new to this 'audiophile' scene, so i better ask before being stupid.
Also should i straight away EQ them to Harman curve? Or should i just keep a flat EQ for testing?
A quick and maybe stupid question 'bout Harman curve -Oratory1990- but what is the correct website now, 'cause i found two, but with different EQ results..
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990/harman_over-ear_2018 & https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/

One last thing regarding the SBX G6, in your signature and some other posts around here, i indeed noticed you use this one too and are very satisficed with the Virtual Surround Sound. I must say, i can't get my head around all the options in the SBX profiles. I tried a lot of settings, -probably wrong- but i just don't 'feel' it with the VSS..
And again, i know there are people for and against VSS, but that is for everyone themselves to find out. I want to find out if it fits me, but i'm afraid i need some guidance to set it up properly..
Atm i even went back to full basic, in the 'Playback tab' i just put it back to headphones - stereo (no 5.1 or 7.1 surround). Same in Windows Playback Sound, but yea that syncs with the SBX settings.. And i must say, it works good to me, BUT i think i can get more out of the SBX, so at least i want to give it a try and see where it brings me.
So the SBX settings are just complete standard now, and i've got PEACE APO running for the Harman curve EQ.

I know i'm asking a lot here, my two posts almost fill up half a page here , but i thought i could just ask or you or someone else can help me out setting it up?
I did my research before, and did test multiple settings (headphones on 7.1 in the playback tab, surround in the profiles on 30-33 or 67 and so on, did the virtual barber test -damn that thing gave me goosebumps the first time -), but for me it seemed to do more bad than good.. Or maybe my current PC37x headset is just not made for it..

Once again, thanks already!

Hi, it's late here, so I'm gonna try to keep this a brief reply if I can with my brain that's tiring, lol!

Cool, you've bought both headphones, this will be the best way to compare them!

In my mind, there's two different ways of using headphones: gaming & music. For me a music EQ is an EQ to the Harman Curve perhaps with some small tweaks to bass preference and a few elsewhere, but essentially Harman Curve - use the Oratory pdf files here (https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/ ). Gaming EQ is what I already mentioned in an earlier post. So for your testing I suggest you jump straight in with an EQ to Harman for your music testing - if that's what you use when listening to music. Then for gaming testing I suggest you start using each headphone at stock, because both the HD560s and your DT990 Pro X have what I consider good gaming frequency responses straight out of the box.

For Virtual Surround Sound in gaming on the G6 DAC that we both have. Set Playback Screen to Virtual 7.1 Surround (or Virtual 5.1 if your game only supports 5.1) & of course you have to set your game to 5.1 or 7.1 or whatever it's using. On SBX Profile Screen deselect (deactivate) all sound processing variables but leave the Surround variable active which you can change from 0-100. I recommend you experiment from 0-100 whilst each time listening to this 7.1 speaker demo, close your eyes and try to picture the position (you can download the following file):

https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/7.1auditionOutLeader%20v2.wav

You'll want to get each of those speakers sounding like they're coming from the correct place around you - changing the Surround variable between 0-100 will change the position of those speakers - crazy right! It's very useful - more details here re Virtual Surround and and that link etc:

Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

Hi, I thought I'd start this thread as a gaming virtual 7.1 surround sound enthusiast in headphones. We can let this thread develop into whatever we like on the topic of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in headphones, and perhaps I'll continue to edit this first post with links to useful...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I recommend you'll want to use no more than 67 on your Surround Variable, and probably for best effect you'll probably end up somewhere between 20-40, but do experiment with it in the 60's.....I kind of found there was a sweet spot of acceptable ranges from 20-40 and then also in the 60's, but really probably 20-40, and I'll let you work out what's best for you rather than telling you my settings, as you need to work it out for yourself using that 7.1 speaker test link - most optimal settings are probably different depending on person & headphone (frequency response) used.

Don't do the Virtual Barber test (it's not accurate enough to know exact placement of virtual speakers), instead do the simple 7.1 speaker test file I linked above (fraunhofer).

EDIT: that wasn't brief, lol, but didn't take me months to write!

EDIT#2: changing the Surround Variable by just 1 unit value can change the position of the speakers, so when you experiment with changing the Surround Variable then make sure to move it just one increment at a time (at least when you've got it in the right ballpark anyway).

EDIT #3: for music listening you'll want the G6 DAC in Direct Mode, and specifically Direct Mode Stereo. Also select "Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase" on that screen for the Filter Type. Last but not least you don't want to run your Windows Volume at 100% with the G6 DAC because it clips according to Amir's review, but if you set it to -2dBFS in Windows then it won't clip, well set it to -2.4dBFS just to be safe (lol) which is the same as 85% Windows Volume. Note, if you're connecting a headphone directly to the G6, which I think you are then this doesn't matter because you'll be well below 100% Windows Volume anyway!

EDIT #4: for gaming, you'll also want to make sure that your game doesn't do it's own headphone virtual surround processing, because otherwise you're applying virtual surround processing twice - once being processed by the game & then the second time by your G6 DAC - which will result in a mess. Normally just setting a game to 5.1 or 7.1 sound output will be fine though, because then it's just your G6 that takes those 7.1 channels and processes it itself. For games that do their own virtual surround processing (sometimes the headphone option in the game menus, but you'll have to research your specific game as to what it does when you set it to headphone) - then for these games that process the virtual surround themselves then you'll want to put your G6 DAC just in Direct Mode Stereo (ie it's just a dumb DAC with no processing), which will just let the game do the virtual surround processing.

 

[usern]

For gaming, it matters less what headphone you get and more how much practice you have put in the game with one pair of headphones. You need create instinctive mapping of your own location (spatial map / level awareness), types of sounds the game uses and locations of sound sources and only practice can achieve that. Also keep in mind that games have different approaches to spatial sound - with some games it might be easier to pin point sounds than with others. Even game updates can have big impact.

 

[Robbo99999]

For gaming, it matters less what headphone you get and more how much practice you have put in the game with one pair of headphones. You need create instinctive mapping of your own location (spatial map / level awareness), types of sounds the game uses and locations of sound sources and only practice can achieve that. Also keep in mind that games have different approaches to spatial sound - with some games it might be easier to pin point sounds than with others. Even game updates can have big impact.

I don't totally agree with your first sentence there. Type of headphone makes a large difference, for instance HD600 stayed as the classic 3 blob left-right-centre no matter how much I persisted with it (this was before I even heard about the 3-blob effect with this headphone) - I could tell this was the case because I was constantly panning left & right to stay locked onto an enemy player "behind a wall" (not visible) in order to try to stay locked onto his position, whereas with something like the HD560s it's effortless (unthinking) to stay locked on centrally to a sound as the enemy player moves around unseen. I do think you're right in your first sentence inasmuch as if your headphone has deficiencies like poor channel balance then it will take a while for your brain to automatically relearn the balance of left & right to accurately pinpoint sounds - think the same learning mechanism when you have a blocked up ear in real life that temporarily creates channel imbalance in your own ears. And you're right, different games will have different implementations of sound design which will make positional sound identification easier or harder and indeed also sometimes positional sound is not as important in some games anyway.

 

[usern]

HD600 stayed as the classic 3 blob left-right-centre no matter how much I persisted with it (this was before I even heard about the 3-blob effect with this headphone)

How long did you try to use HD600? Over multiple days? There is different opinions about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bb7fvb
I have HD660 and while different than 560S, I could get used to them.

Pros often use IEMs. In addition to blocking out ambient noise, they can also be used under sponsored gear that might be mandatory to wear in some tournaments.

Closed headphones might be good choice if there is ambient noise (from computer or AC for example) that could drown quiet sounds like footsteps.

 

[Robbo99999]

How long did you try to use HD600? Over multiple days? There is different opinions about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bb7fvb
I have HD660 and while different than 560S, I could get used to them.

Pros often use IEMs. In addition to blocking out ambient noise, they can also be used under sponsored gear that might be mandatory to wear in some tournaments.

Closed headphones might be good choice if there is ambient noise (from computer or AC for example) that could drown quiet sounds like footsteps.

I didn't use it for long, maybe one day or a 4hr session, something like that, but it was immediately clear that it wasn't going to work for me - it's obvious to me that there's no need to force yourself to try to get used to inferior gaming headphones when you can actually choose headphones that work better for gaming in the first place. I know some people are saying in this thread that choice of headphone for gaming "makes no difference", but like I've been constantly replying to people that's not aligned with my experience at all - I've done silly amount of fps gaming and since I've found ASR in late 2019 I've been applying what I've been learning here on ASR re everything audio & headphones to my gaming experience (including trying different headphones & different frequency responses through EQ, combined with optimising virtual 7.1 surround sound).....it's quite niche, there's probably not that many people that are big gamers that have been quite that obsessive and applied that much time & effort & "logical/systematic/scientific audio knowledge driven" approach to optimising their gaming audio. (Stuff in quotes in previous sentence as I don't want to be too grandiose and overstate the rigour in which I've done the experimentation - it's not scientifically bullet proof of course lol hence the quotation marks, but I am a logical and persistent guy, so I've done my best to be sure that I've whittled it down what works best for me & the points I've learned.)

You mention IEM's, funnily enough the Truthear Crinacle X Zero (my only IEM experience) works absolutely fantastically for gaming - out of the box it was as good as my best gaming headphones for Virtual 7.1 Surround gaming - I really wasn't expecting that as previously I had thought better soundstage headphones meant better gaming headphones, but that IEM was absolutely fantastic for gaming, only I can't wear it because it irritates my ears. I'm not about to go down the IEM route, I don't agree with pushing stuff into your ears, it goes against the natural conveyor belt of skin growth which is part of the natural way that your ear removes wax & debris from your ear - if you were to place a dot using ink on your eardrum, then in a few months (can't remember the exact time frame) you'd find the ink dot located on your earlobe.

 

[usern]

@Robbo99999 are we talking about different things? I'm talking about stereo headphone sound for competitive gaming. In this world practice, reflexes, strategy, aim matters more than choice of headphones for achieving success, higher rank, etc. If you are talking about immersive experience, then maybe yes, one should get wider sound stage headphones.

 

[d3rF.]

Hi, it's late here, so I'm gonna try to keep this a brief reply if I can with my brain that's tiring, lol!

Cool, you've bought both headphones, this will be the best way to compare them!

In my mind, there's two different ways of using headphones: gaming & music. For me a music EQ is an EQ to the Harman Curve perhaps with some small tweaks to bass preference and a few elsewhere, but essentially Harman Curve - use the Oratory pdf files here (https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/ ). Gaming EQ is what I already mentioned in an earlier post. So for your testing I suggest you jump straight in with an EQ to Harman for your music testing - if that's what you use when listening to music. Then for gaming testing I suggest you start using each headphone at stock, because both the HD560s and your DT990 Pro X have what I consider good gaming frequency responses straight out of the box.

For Virtual Surround Sound in gaming on the G6 DAC that we both have. Set Playback Screen to Virtual 7.1 Surround (or Virtual 5.1 if your game only supports 5.1) & of course you have to set your game to 5.1 or 7.1 or whatever it's using. On SBX Profile Screen deselect (deactivate) all sound processing variables but leave the Surround variable active which you can change from 0-100. I recommend you experiment from 0-100 whilst each time listening to this 7.1 speaker demo, close your eyes and try to picture the position (you can download the following file):

https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/7.1auditionOutLeader%20v2.wav

You'll want to get each of those speakers sounding like they're coming from the correct place around you - changing the Surround variable between 0-100 will change the position of those speakers - crazy right! It's very useful - more details here re Virtual Surround and and that link etc:

Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

Hi, I thought I'd start this thread as a gaming virtual 7.1 surround sound enthusiast in headphones. We can let this thread develop into whatever we like on the topic of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in headphones, and perhaps I'll continue to edit this first post with links to useful...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I recommend you'll want to use no more than 67 on your Surround Variable, and probably for best effect you'll probably end up somewhere between 20-40, but do experiment with it in the 60's.....I kind of found there was a sweet spot of acceptable ranges from 20-40 and then also in the 60's, but really probably 20-40, and I'll let you work out what's best for you rather than telling you my settings, as you need to work it out for yourself using that 7.1 speaker test link - most optimal settings are probably different depending on person & headphone (frequency response) used.

Don't do the Virtual Barber test (it's not accurate enough to know exact placement of virtual speakers), instead do the simple 7.1 speaker test file I linked above (fraunhofer).

EDIT: that wasn't brief, lol, but didn't take me months to write!

EDIT#2: changing the Surround Variable by just 1 unit value can change the position of the speakers, so when you experiment with changing the Surround Variable then make sure to move it just one increment at a time (at least when you've got it in the right ballpark anyway).

EDIT #3: for music listening you'll want the G6 DAC in Direct Mode, and specifically Direct Mode Stereo. Also select "Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase" on that screen for the Filter Type. Last but not least you don't want to run your Windows Volume at 100% with the G6 DAC because it clips according to Amir's review, but if you set it to -2dBFS in Windows then it won't clip, well set it to -2.4dBFS just to be safe (lol) which is the same as 85% Windows Volume. Note, if you're connecting a headphone directly to the G6, which I think you are then this doesn't matter because you'll be well below 100% Windows Volume anyway!

EDIT #4: for gaming, you'll also want to make sure that your game doesn't do it's own headphone virtual surround processing, because otherwise you're applying virtual surround processing twice - once being processed by the game & then the second time by your G6 DAC - which will result in a mess. Normally just setting a game to 5.1 or 7.1 sound output will be fine though, because then it's just your G6 that takes those 7.1 channels and processes it itself. For games that do their own virtual surround processing (sometimes the headphone option in the game menus, but you'll have to research your specific game as to what it does when you set it to headphone) - then for these games that process the virtual surround themselves then you'll want to put your G6 DAC just in Direct Mode Stereo (ie it's just a dumb DAC with no processing), which will just let the game do the virtual surround processing.

Very brief, yes indeed LOL
No really, thanks for all the explaining. Will come in handy when i start testing them tomorrow. Was planned for today, but passed night my local postal company decided to strike for 24 hours.. So we play the waiting game one day longer.

Regarding the VSS: seems like i had all the settings correct. But the 'wav-file' from fraunhofer is new to me, so will test it extensively and see where it brings me.
As previously mentioned, with my PC37x's i didn't like it, but maybe they were just not made for it. We will see.

For the music listening part: i've always used the "Fast Roll Off - Minimum Phase", what's the difference with the "Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase" you suggest?
The Audio Quality is set to "32 bit, 48kHz" (in normal headphone/stereo mode, not Direct Mode Stereo), seen that couple of times before on the web, so must be correct right? And my headphones are directly connect to the G6 indeed, which in turn is connected via usb to the computer. Volume of the G6 -but yea that syncs with Windows- set to 84%.
I actually don't know if this matters much, 'cause you can set the volume to x-level, but in your Volume Mixer from windows you can lower the volume from your browser to x-level and in YT for example too.. So how does this all add up?

For gaming: Never thought of the double vss processing before! Didn't even know it was possible.. I thought that was all taken care of 'internally' between the DAC and 'game engine'. Will have to do some research regarding this, 'cause i really never looked at it before. Like in COD MW2 now, i just put the sound preset on 'Home Theater', cause i found it the best sounding, but no idea what else it does.

Oh one last thing, the 'High Gain Mode' from the G6 starts at 150ohms if i'm correct. So for both the headphones it's ok to keep them in 'Low Gain Mode' i'm guessing?

 

[Robbo99999]

@Robbo99999 are we talking about different things? I'm talking about stereo headphone sound for competitive gaming. In this world practice, reflexes, strategy, aim matters more than choice of headphones for achieving success, higher rank, etc. If you are talking about immersive experience, then maybe yes, one should get wider sound stage headphones.

Well I'm talking specifically about 7.1 Virtual Surround Sound gaming (which is my use case) in fps gaming, but an fps game with simple 2 channel sound then the same variables are present for things like tracking an invisible opponent by sound "through a wall", which would make the HD600 a poor choice if you remember my example where I said I had to keep panning left & right to stay locked onto the invisible opponent, whereas with the HD560s I just naturally pointed at the sound of the invisible opponent and was able to track it smoothly without constant panning of the mouse left & right to try to keep the opponent centralised (which was required for the HD600). I think that's related to the 3-blob effect of the HD600, and theoretically that should be the same problem for both 7.1 Virtual and 2 channel. Headphone choice matters for gaming if you want to optimise it.

But I've already agreed with you that there are other things that make a person a better player, it's not just about the sound, of course it's not, I've already said that more than once in this thread. Sound can be a big help in some games, and in others not so much.

 

[Robbo99999]

Very brief, yes indeed LOL
No really, thanks for all the explaining. Will come in handy when i start testing them tomorrow. Was planned for today, but passed night my local postal company decided to strike for 24 hours.. So we play the waiting game one day longer.

Regarding the VSS: seems like i had all the settings correct. But the 'wav-file' from fraunhofer is new to me, so will test it extensively and see where it brings me.
As previously mentioned, with my PC37x's i didn't like it, but maybe they were just not made for it. We will see.

For the music listening part: i've always used the "Fast Roll Off - Minimum Phase", what's the difference with the "Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase" you suggest?
The Audio Quality is set to "32 bit, 48kHz" (in normal headphone/stereo mode, not Direct Mode Stereo), seen that couple of times before on the web, so must be correct right? And my headphones are directly connect to the G6 indeed, which in turn is connected via usb to the computer. Volume of the G6 -but yea that syncs with Windows- set to 84%.
I actually don't know if this matters much, 'cause you can set the volume to x-level, but in your Volume Mixer from windows you can lower the volume from your browser to x-level and in YT for example too.. So how does this all add up?

For gaming: Never thought of the double vss processing before! Didn't even know it was possible.. I thought that was all taken care of 'internally' between the DAC and 'game engine'. Will have to do some research regarding this, 'cause i really never looked at it before. Like in COD MW2 now, i just put the sound preset on 'Home Theater', cause i found it the best sounding, but no idea what else it does.

Oh one last thing, the 'High Gain Mode' from the G6 starts at 150ohms if i'm correct. So for both the headphones it's ok to keep them in 'Low Gain Mode' i'm guessing?

"Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase", it's the filter that is most likely going to produce the correct fast roll-off of the frequency response above 20kHz, Amir reviews the G6 here and recommends using that one:

Review and Measurements of Sound BlasterX G6

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sound BlasterX G6. I purchased it last month for USD $150 from Amazon including shipping. Typical of PC audio connectivity devices, the Sound BlasterX G6 is a combo device which includes an audio DAC, ADC, and headphone amplifier. This being...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir didn't actually measure the effect of all the different filter options in the G6 review, but an example of his filter measurements from another DAC review is a graph such as this:

You can see the red line in the graph is described as "Fast Roll Off (linear)" and you can see it preserves the most flat frequency response out to 20kHz whilst providing a steep cut off - and this is academically/technically the most high fidelity solution. So best to choose "Fast Roll Off - Linear Phase" for the G6 DAC.

For music listening you'll want to set the DAC Sampling Rate (eg 44kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz, etc) to the same sampling rate as the music file that you're playing. CD's are 44kHz 16bit, and most downloaded music would be 44kHz, so really for music listening you'd set your DAC to 44kHz and 32 bit. 32bit just allows you to retain a bit more theoretical sound quality (reduces quantization noise I think is the term) when using digital volume control, which is what you're doing when you've got your headphone directly hooked up to the G6 - it's digital volume control. The digital volume control will sum through the Windows Slider and your software player volume controls, but the point where I said to make sure you stay under 85% Windows Volume Control it's probably unlikely that you'll go above that with a headphone. 85% Windows Volume Control and 100% volume in your music player software is just like running 85% Windows Volume Control. If you run your music software player at reduced volume then that will sum with the 85% Windows Volume Control to make it below 85% Windows Volume Control. If I was you I'd run all my software music players at 100% volume and then just try to make sure that your master system volume control (ie Windows Volume Control is under 85% which it probably will be.). Just use the Volume Knob on the G6 to alter the volume (which is the same thing as the Windows Volume Control Slider in this case). Use Low Gain if you can get the headphones loud enough, nothing else matters really re Low vs High Gain. HD560s should definitely be Low Gain, don't know about the Beyer headphone you're buying. Low Gain gives you better theoretical measurements, but of course if it's not loud enough then you switch to High Gain. Praps you'd switch to High Gain, if you were having to run the Windows Slider above 85% in Low Gain to get the headphone loud enough, so as to prevent the clipping Amir observed, although I'm less sure about the interaction of High & Low Gain through the headphone amp section in relation to clipping, as Amir was using Line Out and not the headphone amp for his testing.

For Gaming, if you can be bothered, set the sample rate in the G6 DAC to 48kHz, 32 bit. Most games operate on 48kHz.

Yeah, have a look into your games to make sure you're not doing double VSS processing.

 

[Snook]

There's a reason BF isn't played professionally... Also no pro FPS player is just running around the map reacting to sound cue's, they pretty much know exactly where every player is by using teamwork and communication. Sound just isn't as important a factor when playing an FPS in a professional environment, they don't need that crutch.

This is correct. I played Pro CS back in 2008 and we used to practice sometimes by turning off sound alltogether and relying on our team comms. It points out flaws instantly in your communication. I was an AD700 user back then, even at LAN, just cranked the shit out of it.

Yes sound matters a lot, but when you goto lan comms and team chemistry trump sound x10000. You very often have bad sound and distractions at LAN. Pro's might get a free kill once in a while from an audio cue, but overall its not as big a deal as everything else.

In saying that, im older now but still play a lot of ranked csgo and pubg for fun with friends etc. I purchased HD800S and HD560s recently to upgrade from PC38X. The HD800S is not worth the money what so ever, I can hear just as accurately on the HD560s which is a step up from the PC38X. The HD800S actually creates a very unnatural image and often things that are side on sound behind you etc. as it tries to fake the sound stage.

The best gaming headphones for your bedroom/office IMO are the 560s with a modmic wireless or plug in boompro etc. for the money they are fantastic. HD800S is ok, kinda fake soundstage, weird unfun sound and VASTLY overpriced. On a Schiit Hel they sound no better than the hd560s. In store, demoing them on $3000 amps, sure they sound better, but still, not worth.

I need to try my mates ath-r70x after reading this thread tho.

 

[Ufasas]

Tl;Dr: I love my HD560S, but the ATH-R70x (with a JDS Atom Amp) is the closest thing to a holographic 3D sound image I've ever heard in COD.

I play mostly COD & recently went on a binge to see if anything could dethrone my 560S for situational awareness... tried DT900 Pro X, PC38X, K702, 700X, a used AD700 off eBay, plus retested my Sundaras & former go-to DT990 (250 Ω). None bested the 560S for me. Then I

The 900's made gunfire sound VERY HARSH when sound pressure levels got anywhere even close to what I can comfortably listen to the HD560S (peaks around 90 dB). I can see why Fresh Reviews & others love them, but they're not for me.

Trying the PC38X convinced me that anyone who pushes them are shills. Perhaps my pair were assembled late on a Friday (if that's a thing for assembly workers in China) but they sounded terrible to me with harsh treble, muddy bass, and worst of all, 3-blob left.......center........right soundstage that was horrendous for locating footsteps and subtle audio clues.

K702 & 700X both have exaggerated huge soundstages that sound unnatural to me. I know the direction, but all too often the distance of footsteps and subtle audio clues was hard to determine. I can certainly see why people get impressed by their big stage. Plus their weak bass & elevated treble definitely trigger your "spider sense" to hear an enemy around you even when explosions & gunfire are going off. But the HD560S simply give me a much better overall stronger sense of direction AND distance...

Unfortunately the old AD700 came with a driver imbalance where the right was about 2dB louder than left. Still, I could tell these were significantly better sounding than the 700X that replaced them, as well as vastly more comfortable with superior (possibly aftermarket) pads. I was initially tempted to get a preamp with ability to balance the left & right channel, but decided that it still wouldn't sound as good as the HD560S...

Sundara simply sounds beautiful, but unfortunately has a smaller soundstage & doesn't image as nicely as the 560S, so it will remain at my work desk for sublime music listening...

DT990's V-shaped EQ means gunfire isn't as harsh as with the 900 Pro X. Its soaring treble helps reveal those "tinglers," But for me the 990's greatest strength is resolving distance of sounds accurately. As an OCD engineer, I found if you go into a private match to mess around with auditory changes as you approach or retreat from sound sources, the DT990 seem to resolve finer changes in sound pressure better than all of the above. But its smaller soundstage and frankly its annoying long, curly cable make me reach for the 560S instead...

...That is until I gave the ATH-R70x a listen (due to Crinacle's kind words on these sadly overlooked & mostly forgotten pair of cans). WOW! Not only can I tell if someone if sneaking up behind, but I can tell if he's jumping, crouched, above, below, behind a wall, etc. These are the "wall-hack" headphones I've been searching for! I can zero in on sound cues as easy as I can locate my iPhone in the next room with Find My Phone. For example, whenever I hear the signature sound for a loot chest, 9 times out of 10, I can beeline directly to its spot without missing a step. I've gone from well below 50/50 in the Gulag to winning nearly 70-75% of the time thanks to its holographic 3D sound image.

The caveat is to extract that much detail, you WILL need a headphone amp. I was actually able to get a satisfactory volume level (85 dB peaks w/ slow C-weighted) connected directly to my Xbox controller, however the soundstage and dynamics were reduced. Connecting it to my JDS Atom (via an Astro MixAmp Pro TR to free my controller of wires) enables its 470 Ω / 98 dB (1 mW) drivers to sing!

However you asked specifically about Sennheiser... I must say the HD560S is right there. And that's powered from an Xbox controller! At 120 Ω, they stand to improve a bit in dynamics with a headphone amplifier, however thanks to more efficient 110 dB @ 1V (or ≈101 dB/mW) drivers, they are already at perhaps 90-95% peak performance with the common 1 Vrms output voltage in many, if not most modern portable electronics (other than a PS4 controller). In fact, it's as if the 560S was designed to just make it at the limit of our phones with its 110 dB @ 1V spec, given that 110 dB loudness is a common benchmark for audiophile gear, most phones today can output 1Vrms... Likewise with 120 Ω impedance, only 8mW of power & 8 mA of current is required, which an iPhone and an Xbox controller can manage. So you could say the HD560S is ideally suited for the majority of gamers who aren't running headphone amplifiers.

I can attest that I get 85-90 dB peaks in COD with my 560S plugged directly into Xbox controller & volume level set to 8/10 with chat mix at 50/50. Meanwhile the R70x requires 10/10 volume & 100% sent to Headphone (0% chat) to achieve 80-85 dB peaks from controller... Listenable, but again with significantly reduced dynamics, since its 470 Ω & 98 dB/mW craves 2.7 Vrms for 110 dB sound pressure!

So in the end, I have both the 560S & R70x by my side... When I'm preparing for a gaming session, I fire up the JDS Atom, MixAmp, & untangle the 2 wires to the R70x & 1 for the Antlion ModMic (wireless one doesn't work on Xbox!) and settle in for glorious 3D immersive wall-hacking sound. But when a buddy hits me up in the middle of Netflix or such, I'll simply grab the 560S with a VModa BoomPro & plug it straight into the controller for quick & easy excellent FPS gaming audio.

i like how you feel about hd560s, i still use them in competitive games daily, and k702, i also like how you feel about them, also with same DAC/audio card (k5 pro/asus soar) and same volume/gain levels k702 sounds quieter than any other headphones i have tried, though these are top2 headphones for competitive games for me personally, nothing matched them yet, i am about to try Fidelio x3, then i will know, if there is a 3rd headphone, that can stir the balance, hehe.

 

[manos_21_]

i like how you feel about hd560s, i still use them in competitive games daily, and k702, i also like how you feel about them, also with same DAC/audio card (k5 pro/asus soar) and same volume/gain levels k702 sounds quieter than any other headphones i have tried, though these are top2 headphones for competitive games for me personally, nothing matched them yet, i am about to try Fidelio x3, then i will know, if there is a 3rd headphone, that can stir the balance, hehe.

Hello..i know its old post but where you use them??at pc or Playstation 5??
If you use them in PS5,you put 3d audio on??

 

[iLoveCats]

I bounce between Sennheiser HD6XX (which you guys seem to hate) HiFi Man HE400i and some Crinacle Zero IEM's. I tend to use the HD6XX's more than anything. All my headphones sound in the game like they do with music. I don't see an advantage to any of them, just different flavors. I'm unaware of the world around me in the IEM's, I'm semi unaware of the world around me in the HD6XX and I know exactly what's going on around me in the HiFi Man's.

 

[Robbo99999]

I bounce between Sennheiser HD6XX (which you guys seem to hate) HiFi Man HE400i and some Crinacle Zero IEM's. I tend to use the HD6XX's more than anything. All my headphones sound in the game like they do with music. I don't see an advantage to any of them, just different flavors. I'm unaware of the world around me in the IEM's, I'm semi unaware of the world around me in the HD6XX and I know exactly what's going on around me in the HiFi Man's.

(I mentioned in an earlier post that Crinacle Zero Blue IEM has been my best gaming experience (or at least equal IIRC) for a headphone. Just I won't use them because of IEM's pushing wax back into the ear. So I'm not surprised that Crinacle Zero is in your list, but of course I'm surprised about your HD6XX).

 

[Ufasas]

Hello..i know its old post but where you use them??at pc or Playstation 5??
If you use them in PS5,you put 3d audio on??

instead of x3 fidelio, i prioritise Hifiman Sundara, much more fun headphone than x3, so my top 3 now: 560s, k702, sundara, for music, fps gaming, etc, now running k7 fiio, and it is running without complaints on PC and msi vector laptop

 

[dinodino]

Buying a HD800 to get a better KD in fps games is so facepalm. I'd rather get a decent headphone which is FUN for gaming. Maybe add "competitive gaming" to the title...

 

[Ufasas]

Better to learn what type of steps sound you hear on the different floors around the map with 1 headphone in a competitive game, i agree, so you learn to make decisions quicker, and be more forward than late to act