Where is the science in EQ of headphones?

[cany89]

I don’t understand why people talk about EQ like rocket science. If you lift up the 120hz 3dB and hear a distortion then reduce it a bit and try again. There are plenty of headphones that respond exceptionally well to EQ. You either choose a headphone that you like the sound from the beginning or a headphone where you can tweak it. If you are after EQ then obviously you are looking for a capable one. I never heard a planar distort. But if you take Senn. HD something and give +8dB low shelf on bass, it will distort. Then it means you are using the wrong cans for wrong job.
(Extra mile: There are plenty of good speakers, if you have a good listening room you can compare the sound and differences…)

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

EG: EQing to Harman requires driver headroom the can doesn't have. The Result: increased distortion up to audible levels and thus obvious degradation of quality.

Hey, there’s a bit of science!

To be clear, EQ-ing some frequencies with some headphones can increase distortion to audible levels.

But it’s also true to say that EQ-ing some frequencies with some headphones will not increase distortion to audible levels.

I think a lot if this goes back to the old days of analogue tone controls, where everything extra put in the signal path was problematic. EQ-ing in the digital domain is not the same.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Not always. Sometimes people have headphones that don't respond well to EQing to HTR. Amir has found some of those.

In those cases it's the distortion and overall fidelity that is negatively affected, not the tonality though.

 

[GaryH]

Besides that, passive headphones still have plenty of confounding factors. Bass distortion or low power handling can easily prevent you from using the full Harman bass shelf. Cancellation dips can cause unfixable nulls. It's also not uncommon for a headphone's treble to be full of narrow-ish Q peaks that can't be fixed without without killing all the treble because they shift too much with the position of the headphone on your head.

So broken / poorly designed headphones then, which you shouldn't be buying in the first place. Any competently designed headphone will respond well to EQing.

 

[Yuhasz01]

I don't see what the issue is for you other than you think EQ ruins the sound quality. Have you tried using EQ?

Yes , I use Rme adi- 2dac with peq capacity with sennheiser 660s and Beyerdynamic 880 headphones.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

So broken / poorly designed headphones then, which you shouldn't be buying in the first place. Any competently designed headphone will respond well to EQing.

I think that’s a tad harsh, but you have a point.

I’m not sure any headphone tracks Harman exactly, so all will need at least some EQ if that’s what you’re aiming for.

But I don’t think every listener either (a) prefers Harman, or (b) has a desire to, or even knows about EQ.

 

[maverickronin]

So broken / poorly designed headphones then, which you shouldn't be buying in the first place. Any competently designed headphone will respond well to EQing.

Well the last two are for sure broken/poor designs.

If you count the first on you may have to say that most open dynamic driver designs are broken/poor depending on desired max SPL.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Well the last two are for sure broken/poor designs.

If you count the first on you may have to say that most open dynamic driver designs are broken/poor depending on desired max SPL.

If a headphone doesn’t claim to be distortion-free when EQd, then I don’t think this applies.

Most headphone designs have been around since before we tried to EQ them (in the way in which we do here). Most headphones sold will never be EQd.

The headphone might be ‘broken’ for you/us, but we need to show a little humility and appreciate they we’re in a tiny minority.

 

[maverickronin]

If a headphone doesn’t claim to be distortion-free when EQd, then I don’t think this applies.

Most headphone designs have been around since before we tried to EQ them (in the way in which we do here). Most headphones sold will never be EQd.

The headphone might be ‘broken’ for you/us, but we need to show a little humility and appreciate they we’re in a tiny minority.

If we're talking about just the bass extension and/or shelving then I agree. That's a personal preference and an intentional design tradeoff.

 

[GaryH]

If you count the first on you may have to say that most open dynamic driver designs are broken/poor depending on desired max SPL.

Distortion in the bass typically isn't audible until it reaches around 5%, so this isn't as widespread an issue as many would lead you to believe.

 

[maverickronin]

Distortion in the bass typically isn't audible until it reaches around 5%, so this isn't as widespread an issue as many would lead you to believe.

Go look at some of the distortion graphs of open dynamics. That hurdle is easily cleared with a full Harman bass shelf at "live" SPLs.

 

[GaryH]

I think that’s a tad harsh, but you have a point.

I’m not sure any headphone tracks Harman exactly, so all will need at least some EQ if that’s what you’re saiming for.

But I don’t think every listener either (a) prefers Harman, or (b) has a desire to, or even knows about EQ.

a) Correct, as Sean Olive's research showed, around 15% actually prefer more bass than Harman (including 30% of trained listeners), and 20% prefer less (likely explained by the latter mostly comprising of those over 50 who will have the onset of presbycusis)

b) Correct, but apart from bass distortion (depending how bad it is), those issues listed will affect sound quality with or without EQ

 

[GaryH]

Go look at some of the distortion graphs of open dynamics. That hurdle is easily cleared with a full Harman bass shelf at "live" SPLs.

If you're routinely listening at 'live' SPLs, you'll have more to worry about than bass distortion i.e. NIHL. Anyway, the APM (although it has other problems) has shown that it's perfectly possible in modern times to produce a dynamic driver that has low bass distortion (instead of lazily relying on 30 year old designs...*coughsennheiser*). But if you're really worried about bass distortion, the obvious solution is to just get a planar magnetic or electrostatic headphone, the former often with low bass distortion at lower prices than dynamic drivers.

 

[maverickronin]

If you're routinely listening at 'live' SPLs, you'll have more to worry about than bass distortion i.e. NIHL.

All that depends on the dynamic range of your music, and most importantly, exposure time.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/music-how-loud-is-loud-video.22434/

Have you even read any of the articles or reviews here (or somewhere else reality-based) or did you just come to troll?

Anyway, the APM (although it has other problems) has shown that it's perfectly possible in modern times to produce a dynamic driver that has low bass distortion

You missed the "open" part. It's not as big an issue with closed dynamic designs.

Also ANC designs are a whole different category since they can use feedback to control low frequency distortion.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

a) Correct, as Sean Olive's research showed, around 15% actually prefer more bass than Harman (including 30% of trained listeners), and 20% prefer less (likely explained by the latter mostly comprising of those over 50 who will have the onset of presbycusis)

b) Correct, but apart from bass distortion (depending how bad it is), those issues listed will affect sound quality with or without EQ

Whilst I would take your point, I still feel most people will never use EQ on their headphones, and I’m not sure I’ve ever seen its potential use mentioned in marketing blurb or specs.

As such, I feel calling headphones which can’t handle EQ as ‘broken’ is a bit too much.

If we take ‘broken’ as ‘not fit for purpose’, then you could argue that every pair which doesn’t follow Harman exactly is ‘broken’. Which is every pair.

 

[GaryH]

Whilst I would take your point, I still feel most people will never use EQ on their headphones, and I’m not sure I’ve ever seen its potential use mentioned in marketing blurb or specs.

As such, I feel calling headphones which can’t handle EQ as ‘broken’ is a bit too much.

If we take ‘broken’ as ‘not fit for purpose’, then you could argue that every pair which doesn’t follow Harman exactly is ‘broken’. Which is every pair.

I said broken or poorly designed. You also seem to have missed my answer to your point b), that the aforementioned issues (apart from possibly bass distortion depending on its level), e.g. non-mimimum phase cancellations, and high-Q peaks which vary due to poor frequency response consistency with position on your head, will affect sound quality without EQ too, and are the result of poor design, so headphones that exhibit these issues should not be bought, whether you EQ or not.

 

[GaryH]

All that depends on the dynamic range of your music, and most importantly, exposure time.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/music-how-loud-is-loud-video.22434/

Have you even read any of the articles or reviews here (or somewhere else reality-based) or did you just come to troll?

Cut out the attitude. Yes I've read them. Do you always take every article, review and video on here as the final, 100% definitive truth without question? In any domain of knowledge, it's usually best to consider the input of actual qualified professionals in the specific area. In this case, that's audiologists and auditory (neuro)biologists who specialize in cochlear physiology. Here are some comments from the former:
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/6tmg44/_/dln3q0e And a summary of a paper by the latter:

https://royalsociety.org/news/2014/sounds-we-dont-hear-could-still-affect-our-ears/

Think about that when it's repeatedly and boldly claimed as fact on here that high SPL (sub)bass frequencies won't cause hearing damage because our hearing threshold is high there. As for exposure time, glad you brought that up, because many people listen to headphones while working for 6, even 8 hours a day. As I said, routinely listening like this at live SPLs poses a risk that attending the odd concert every now and then does not.

 

[maverickronin]

Cut out the attitude. Yes I've read them. Do you always take every article, review and video on here as the final, 100% definitive truth without question? In any domain of knowledge, it's usually best to consider the input of actual qualified professionals in the specific area. In this case, that's audiologists and auditory (neuro)biologists who specialize in cochlear physiology. Here are some comments from the former:
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/6tmg44/_/dln3q0e And a summary of a paper by the latter:

https://royalsociety.org/news/2014/sounds-we-dont-hear-could-still-affect-our-ears/

Think about that when it's repeatedly and boldly claimed as fact on here that high SPL (sub)bass frequencies won't cause hearing damage because our hearing threshold is high there. As for exposure time, glad you brought that up, because many people listen to headphones while working for 6, even 8 hours a day. As I said, routinely listening like this at live SPLs poses a risk that attending the odd concert every now and then does not.

Who said anything about listening that loud all day?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

How can a sensory cell be "stimulated", to the point of taking damage and yet not be stimulated enough to transmit the signal of the stimulus to the brain?

Any takers on that one?

BTW: I doubt that many people listen to live levels for 6-8 hours. That volume leads to fatigue very quickly. Even musicians wear plugs during their work. Ever heard a Piccolo's higher registers next to you? Not something you want to experience for hours on end.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I said broken or poorly designed. You also seem to have missed my answer to your point b), that the aforementioned issues (apart from possibly bass distortion depending on its level), e.g. non-mimimum phase cancellations, and high-Q peaks which vary due to poor frequency response consistency with position on your head, will affect sound quality without EQ too, and are the result of poor design, so headphones that exhibit these issues should not be bought, whether you EQ or not.

You were responding to:

“Besides that, passive headphones still have plenty of confounding factors. Bass distortion or low power handling can easily prevent you from using the full Harman bass shelf.”

In other words, distorting AFTER EQ.