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What timbre is good timbre?

okok

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long time question here, apart from the famous "natural" line: "it sounds so natural" which can mean anything, the second vague thing is timbre, it gets the timbre so real, like real piano, but different pianos got different sounds/timbre in theory.

so, what timbre is good timbre? how to percept in a correct way
 

MaxwellsEq

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I first came across the word timbre in a school music lesson. The teacher explained that all acoustic musical instruments have timbre and demonstrated the same music played on two different flutes, and it was clear to all of us that one sounded softer than the other.

I don't think, therefore, that an audio system should have any timbre, it should reproduce the timbre of recorded instruments.

When I'm listening to recorded music, I've no idea what the timbre is of the individual instruments. So it's not easy to say that system X is better than system Y. But I would expect a system measuring well should allow me to distinguish different timbres between instruments within a recording. All of us have experienced the effect of hearing a track for the first time on a good system that we've previously only heard in the car or on a small radio and instantly being able to pick out individual instruments so much better. That's as much as we can hope for.
 

antcollinet

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I don't think, therefore, that an audio system should have any timbre, it should reproduce the timbre of recorded instruments.
Exactly

Timbre is a quality of sound created. It comes from all the harmonics that an instrument or voice creates.

If reproduction equipment has "timbre" ie - it adds harmonics to the recording - that is simply distortion: it is changing the shape of the musical waveform.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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the second vague thing is timbre, it gets the timbre so real, like real piano, but different pianos got different sounds/timbre in theory.
If the reproduction system can re-create the timbre of piano 1 accurately, it would stand to reason that it can just as easily accurately recreate the timbre of piano 2, piano 3 and 4. ;)

Basically you want a system as neutral as possible, so all instruments are recreated as accurately as possible.

That being said: when it comes to timbre, you are dealing with the room and the house curve. So apart from being theoretically 100% accurate (which isn't possible in real rooms), this is also an element that is subject to personal taste.
So in the end, there really isn't any "bad" or "good" timbre unless you work in production and depend on neutrality to assess how your mix translates to customers systems.
 

Taiga

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Maybe approach it differently.

What does it take for a setup to have the wrong timbre?

Very Zen. Take a slab of stone and chip away everything that does not look like the Pietà.
 

MattHooper

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long time question here, apart from the famous "natural" line: "it sounds so natural" which can mean anything,

Well...the use of "natural" shouldn't be totally puzzling. If someone reports listening to a well recorded vocal track on two speakers and simply said "the vocals sounded more natural on speaker A" you should at least understand what that means in a general sense: It means like voices sound "in nature" rather than "artificially created" - in other words, more like the Real Thing.

The person may be wrong, but you should get the gist of what they mean.

Of course more detail always helps (and very often if I've seen the term "natural" in reviews it's usually surrounded by more details about why it sounds more natural). So for instance one could say the vocals sounded more "natural" on speaker A because the sibilance was not exaggerated and hardened in an artificial way, like on speaker B.

the second vague thing is timbre, it gets the timbre so real, like real piano, but different pianos got different sounds/timbre in theory.

so, what timbre is good timbre? how to percept in a correct way

Timbre is intriguing.

Even on old phones you could recognize the voice of someone you know. There was enough of the timbre translated (along with recognizable articulations) for you to know "this is grandma's voice." And yet you'd never mistake that sound coming through the phone for the real thing - the person actually talking in front of you.

Likewise you can have a recording of a clarinet and it can be played through all types of playback systems, even crappy speakers on a laptop, on a kid's crosby turntable, through a smart phone speaker...enough timbral/articulation signature comes through to identify it's a clarinet. And yet it doesn't actually sound like a real clarinet would sound. It's missing all sorts of richness, complexity, tonal color.

The challenge in reproducing something like real instrumental timbre was really brought home to me via an experience in the late 90's. I'd visited one of the big Audio Stores in NYC during a big speaker search. In one large demo room they had the gigantic flagship Genesis speakers (1.2, I believe). I was given a demo and I chose to play some orchestral pieces. It blew me away: the detail, the sized and scale of the sound. This was the first time I'd encountered 2 channel speakers that could produce something like the scale of a real orchestra, with amazing clarity.

And yet, when I closed my eyes to listen, as I often did attending orchestral concerts, something was wrong. The fact the system got closer in all aspects made the one missing stand out more: The timbral quality, complexity and variety of all the instruments wasn't there. Just like there is enough information to identify voices I knew through a telephone, there was enough information to identify all the instruments playing. But none actually sounded timbrally like the real thing.
It was like listening to the equivalent of a giant Ansel Adams black and white photo of an orchestra layed out before me: gobs of detail allowing you to see all the instruments, but missing the tonal colors of the real thing. Almost like all the instruments had been replaced by plastic replicas, homogenizing the tonal color...and homogonizing it to something more black and white.

I left wondering if it was just a fool's errand ever expecting a handful of driver materials to be able to replicate the harmonic complexity found in real life sound sources.

And most systems to me produce this same type of homogenization - like the Kii Audio speakers I listened to yesterday - all the detail was there to let me recognize instruments, easily hear all the production choices, reverbs etc. But timbrally like the Genesis speakers, compared to the real thing it sounded colored, homogenized, reduced to black and white. I think there is a reason "tonal color" is a synonym for "timbre." It's clear that, at least for a lot of people sound induces something akin to a sensation of "color." When I close my eyes and listen, colors and hues arise in response to what I'm hearing. I get certain hues from live sound sources that I rarely get when closing my eyes listening to sound systems.
 

fpitas

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Is it not in the ear of the beholder?
That's actually a good question for discussion. The ear can get used to some very odd FRs in time. I use headphones to check the timbre (and everything else) of my speakers to avoid the "floating ground" of hearing adjustment.
 

MattHooper

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Is it not in the ear of the beholder?

I think yes and no.

"No" in the following sense: Whether reproduced sound is accurate to the sound of the "real thing" isn't simply subjective. It would be an objective fact. And reproducible. So if you had speakers that could, for instance, reliably pass blind listening tests between live voices and reproduced, then that pretty much entails they have passed the "indistinguishable from the real thing." Test. And it implies that we wouldn't be stuck with some "well, everyone hears differently so it will only work with some people." It should (with enough testing) predict that pretty much anyone, with all the variations we have in our ears, would perceive the sound as indistinguishable from the real thing. So in that sense I don't think it's all subjective. There are facts about what causes a sound to have it's signature.

"Yes" it's in the ear of the beholder to a degree because: Sound recording and reproduction is so imperfect, and so varied in quality. Relative to the real thing, most sound reproduction is a set of compromises. Once you have that, some people may key on certain compromises as sounding "more real" or "more artificial" and others may key on the opposite attributes. This can be due to varying memory of what real acoustic sources sound like, or perhaps someone has paid attention to live sound and keyed in on certain qualities he finds most salient, so he'll compromise on some qualities to get those in a system. Once you are in the area of compromises, people can vary on what they are willing to compromise on.
 

tuga

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long time question here, apart from the famous "natural" line: "it sounds so natural" which can mean anything, the second vague thing is timbre, it gets the timbre so real, like real piano, but different pianos got different sounds/timbre in theory.

so, what timbre is good timbre? how to percept in a correct way

Start with a "documental" recording.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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And most systems to me produce this same type of homogenization - like the Kii Audio speakers I listened to yesterday - all the detail was there to let me recognize instruments, easily hear all the production choices, reverbs etc. But timbrally like the Genesis speakers, compared to the real thing it sounded colored, homogenized, reduced to black and white. I think there is a reason "tonal color" is a synonym for "timbre." It's clear that, at least for a lot of people sound induces something akin to a sensation of "color." When I close my eyes and listen, colors and hues arise in response to what I'm hearing. I get certain hues from live sound sources that I rarely get when closing my eyes listening to sound systems.
As a flute player, a recorded flute never sounds quite like a real one. Especially not when you compare it to a performance in an actually good venue. I think the real life domestic room we put the speakers in is responsible for that. None of them can compare to a concert hall.

You can get pretty close. Play a guitar in your room and then listen to your speakers. If the recording is sound, with closed eyes, it should sound very natural.
 
D

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You can get pretty close. Play a guitar in your room and then listen to your speakers. If the recording is sound, with closed eyes, it should sound very natural.
Instruments are not recorded with microphones where the players ears would be - the players ears are in the way. So a recording will always sound different from what a player hears.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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Instruments are not recorded with microphones where the players ears would be - the players ears are in the way. So a recording will always sound different from what a player hears.
Yah wrong wording. Have a guitar played in your room.
 

DonR

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As a flute player, a recorded flute never sounds quite like a real one. Especially not when you compare it to a performance in an actually good venue. I think the real life domestic room we put the speakers in is responsible for that. None of them can compare to a concert hall.

You can get pretty close. Play a guitar in your room and then listen to your speakers. If the recording is sound, with closed eyes, it should sound very natural.
If you recorded in a concert hall and the recording and playback were faithful (i.e. high fidelity) you should end up with the same timbre.
 
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