2-Way speaker help

[AdamFrandsen]

I don’t think that AMT would like that. Its resonance is 2200 Hz. Probably best to stay away from that. At least 2500 Hz. Also corroborated here:

Test Bench: The AT60NC-4 AMT Tweeter from SB Acoustics’ Satori Line

The new AT60NC-4 AMT tweeter from SB Acoustics’ Satori Line follows the recent “renaissance” of Air Motion Transformer (AMT or Air Velocity Transformer aka AVT) over the last several years. The Satori AT60CN-4 is targeted at high-end audio applications. Its features include a damped foil and...

audioxpress.com

And as you can see from the response graphs, you will have a directivity mismatch. If you have access to 3D printing you could make a custom waveguide to help with that.

Here in Taiwan there is a 3D print shop not far from my house, but I wouldn’t know how to draw (in a CAD program?) a waveguide let alone calculate the shape and dimensions of one. I leave in a month for Sweden, which is where I will build the speaker - so if the waveguide can be designed and printed based on initial calculations and measurements found online, then I can have it done before leaving.

 

[Dave Bullet]

Regular speaker design software (VituixCAD etc...) can't handle waveguide loading in the simulation. There may be more advanced tools / models to simulate but that's beyond my knowledge. Real measurements with some trial and error is where I believe most of us are at with waveguides. Augerpro (aka Brandon) on DIYaudio . com has a thread and links to his site where he has done extensive waveguide design and measurement for many SBA and Scanspeak tweeters. I'd back him and use his design (with donation of course) which will be far better than trial and error on your own.

Here's is Brandon's website:

Waveguides | somasonus

www.somasonus.net

Of course you might be better off with a kit as your first build, but don't let me put you off design and build. Mine was a 3 way. A stretch goal, but achievable if you are willing to invest time and effort and listen to advice.

 

[AdamFrandsen]

Regular speaker design software (VituixCAD etc...) can't handle waveguide loading in the simulation. There may be more advanced tools / models to simulate but that's beyond my knowledge. Real measurements with some trial and error is where I believe most of us are at with waveguides. Augerpro (aka Brandon) on DIYaudio . com has a thread and links to his site where he has done extensive waveguide design and measurement for many SBA and Scanspeak tweeters. I'd back him and use his design (with donation of course) which will be far better than trial and error on your own.

Here's is Brandon's website:

Waveguides | somasonus

www.somasonus.net

Of course you might be better off with a kit as your first build, but don't let me put you off design and build. Mine was a 3 way. A stretch goal, but achievable if you are willing to invest time and effort and listen to advice.

Yeah, a kit makes me feel I didn’t do anything myself - might as well buy a stock speaker then…

 

[AdamFrandsen]

I don’t think that AMT would like that. Its resonance is 2200 Hz. Probably best to stay away from that. At least 2500 Hz. Also corroborated here:

Test Bench: The AT60NC-4 AMT Tweeter from SB Acoustics’ Satori Line

The new AT60NC-4 AMT tweeter from SB Acoustics’ Satori Line follows the recent “renaissance” of Air Motion Transformer (AMT or Air Velocity Transformer aka AVT) over the last several years. The Satori AT60CN-4 is targeted at high-end audio applications. Its features include a damped foil and...

audioxpress.com

And as you can see from the response graphs, you will have a directivity mismatch. If you have access to 3D printing you could make a custom waveguide to help with that.

What if I implemented another tweeter before it, a dome tweeter, and made it a 3-way design - that way the physical size of the speaker could remain the same… would that be better? Or maybe you can recommend a tweeter that can go lower and still extends all the way? Ribbons that do this are super expensive

 

[voodooless]

maybe you can recommend a tweeter that can go lower and still extends all the way?

To what end? You can’t hear past 20 kHz, probably not even past 17 kHz.

 

[olieb]

What if I implemented another tweeter before it, a dome tweeter, and made it a 3-way design - that way the physical size of the speaker could remain the same… would that be better?

You seem to be set on very specific drivers. That is ok, if these do fit to make a decent speaker, but you should make sure first that this is the case. Maybe you check well designed concepts first?
From John Krutke : ZA5 , ZMV5 , Seas L18 / 27TBFCG
or from Heissmann : DXT-Mon 182 (Documentation for this will cost some money, but this and other designs from Heissmann can show how it can be done)
EDIT: Found another: DUO-DXT (in German, you might want to use a translator ) - but there are many other ones.
And here are files (printing) and measurements for waveguides for the (very good and economical) SB26ADC tweeter.

Then you might change the design to your liking from that. Seas DXT is a good idea in any case. Satori has a (dome) tweeter with waveguide, too.

You might like to look into the Directive threads here at ASR (it is some kind of a mess - at least for me - as I have trouble to find information, often it is not even clear in which of the many threads to look, but there is a passive version somewhere. Others will be able to point you to the right post. Switching the Purifi to another 6" woofer will be possible, if the sensitivities fit together (There is a budget project with other woofers as well.)

EDIT2: And you might want to skip ChatGPT for technical questions. You will get a mix of nonsense and reasonable information, but you need to be able to see the difference. If you do, then you do not need ChatGPT. I.e. the crossover it provided was nonsense.

 

[Dave Bullet]

If you want a large standmount take a look at the Helios. It was the best 2 way I believe Jeff designed ( in his own words)

I know you are against a kit but you'll really need to put in a tonne of learning to be able to match something like this:

Satori Helios 9.5" 2-Way Speaker Kit - Pair: Madisound Speaker Components, Inc.

Satori Helios Speaker Kit designed by Jeff Bagby & Javad Shadzi

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

 

[AdamFrandsen]

To what end? You can’t hear past 20 kHz, probably not even past 17 kHz.

There are other ways to sense high frequencies than through hearing alone - several studies in ultra sound suggests this, and many people report symptoms and sensitivity to ultra sound. Thus, when I can run an audio analyser and see information up to almost 50khz react in accordance to the beat of the music, I want that range covered to the extend it is possible.

 

[AdamFrandsen]

If you want a large standmount take a look at the Helios. It was the best 2 way I believe Jeff designed ( in his own words)

I know you are against a kit but you'll really need to put in a tonne of learning to be able to match something like this:

Satori Helios 9.5" 2-Way Speaker Kit - Pair: Madisound Speaker Components, Inc.

Satori Helios Speaker Kit designed by Jeff Bagby & Javad Shadzi

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

It looks like a nice speaker, but nope - not interested in something that large. The Ara one looks more like what I want

 

[AdamFrandsen]

You seem to be set on very specific drivers. That is ok, if these do fit to make a decent speaker, but you should make sure first that this is the case. Maybe you check well designed concepts first?
From John Krutke : ZA5 , ZMV5 , Seas L18 / 27TBFCG
or from Heissmann : DXT-Mon 182 (Documentation for this will cost some money, but this and other designs from Heissmann can show how it can be done)
EDIT: Found another: DUO-DXT (in German, you might want to use a translator ) - but there are many other ones.
And here are files (printing) and measurements for waveguides for the (very good and economical) SB26ADC tweeter.

Then you might change the design to your liking from that. Seas DXT is a good idea in any case. Satori has a (dome) tweeter with waveguide, too.

You might like to look into the Directive threads here at ASR (it is some kind of a mess - at least for me - as I have trouble to find information, often it is not even clear in which of the many threads to look, but there is a passive version somewhere. Others will be able to point you to the right post. Switching the Purifi to another 6" woofer will be possible, if the sensitivities fit together (There is a budget project with other woofers as well.)

EDIT2: And you might want to skip ChatGPT for technical questions. You will get a mix of nonsense and reasonable information, but you need to be able to see the difference. If you do, then you do not need ChatGPT. I.e. the crossover it provided was nonsense.

I am sure those two drivers fit to some degree, as they are in the same SB Satori line. Also found this: https://www.acoustic-design-magazin.de/2021/12/12/satori-belair-71-der-beginn-einer-neuen-liebe/ - they use the 8 ohm version of the driver instead of the 4 ohm, which I don’t really understand

 

[AdamFrandsen]

I see now in my notes that I originally was looking at using the tw29rn instead of the AMT, but then I discovered they made an AMT and was somehow persuaded to use that instead… Simply inserted that model, without adjusting the suggested crossover… tw29rn with the 16 MW driver might work fine with my earlier posted crossover point:

crossover at 2275hz at 3.5 ohm and 4.26 ohm

C1=10 µF
L1=0.49 mH
C2=8.21 µF
L2=0.6 mH

I most often sit and look at this late at night after concerts, and end up forgetting half of what I discovered

 

[voodooless]

There are other ways to sense high frequencies than through hearing alone - several studies in ultra sound suggests this, and many people report symptoms and sensitivity to ultra sound. Thus, when I can run an audio analyser and see information up to almost 50khz react in accordance to the beat of the music, I want that range covered to the extend it is possible.

Yeah, no… just check how far down that signal is. There is no way you can sense that. Many people also report differences in DACs and cables.. it’s not science. And those studies are all but conclusive as well. All in all, better spend your efforts elsewhere.

 

[AdamFrandsen]

Yeah, no… just check how far down that signal is. There is no way you can sense that. Many people also report differences in DACs and cables.. it’s not science. And those studies are all but conclusive as well. All in all, better spend your efforts elsewhere.

I respectfully disagree - both that it isn’t possible to sense and that it isn’t science. Science is a way to determine and decipher how things work and then used to approximate real life, it comes after fact.

 

[voodooless]

I respectfully disagree

I respectfully request an ABX

 

[AdamFrandsen]

I respectfully request an ABX

I will have the doctor prescribe you some asap! - seems you have the audio science bug Double blind testings are for people who don’t trust their instincts, hahaha

 

[olieb]

I will have the doctor prescribe you some asap! - seems you have the audio science bug Double blind testings are for people who don’t trust their instincts, hahaha

The science bug is quite popular around here. In my view it is much better than the "I have a feeling, therefore it's fact"-bug.

 

[AdamFrandsen]

The science bug is quite popular around here. In my view it is much better than the "I have a feeling, therefore it's fact"-bug.

Finding the golden ratio in this relationship seems alpha omega - certainly faith often brings more joy and life quality than doubt, requires less effort and allows one to devote focus to the senses instead of the sequence. Aesthetics are far greater this way also… Ancient civilisations as well as contemporary primitive ones have build structures and patterns that seem highly mathematical and can indeed be accurately calculated, but they were made on a whim - on intuition.

 

[voodooless]

Double blind testings are for people who don’t trust their instincts, hahaha

Welcome to ASR!

All the information you’ve been given by other members about your project stem not from
Instincts, but from knowledge gained by people that follow the sciences. Not trusting your senses is essential for building solid audio knowledge.

certainly faith often brings more joy and life quality than doubt, requires less effort and allows one to decote focus to the senses instead of the sequence.

I completely disagree! Next to that, you seem to think faith and doubt are to opposites, yet they are just two manifestations of the same thing.

 

[olieb]

If you build a speaker, your base is 100% science and technology (based on science again). Driver construction, cabinet, reflex port, crossover....
I don't get the idea to abandon this very foundation when putting the parts together.

Every speaker design is a bag full of compromises. When you focus on (non audible) ultrasound, you will compromise other (audible) things.
In this case: price of driver, smoothness of FR, directivity pattern, and low frequency extension (as to not use the woofer too far up)
It might be different, if you were a bat or a cat.

 

[AdamFrandsen]

Science is only discovery and a path to use the tools already provided - an approximation at most, that is all I am saying. What about the Harman target curve, that is not science in itself, but merely human bias expressed in science terms. You fail to understand that my personal perception is everything and approximations merely attempts to create an order, which again is fine as long as that doesn’t become your religion - false gods and all that jazz, you know my languages transcend one another, poetry exists in everything and can be expressed in every colour and from any color.