What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[JaapD]

I disagree. Good horn system can "disappear" like any omnidirectional. Problem with horn system is that
Firstly, most of them have horn only in upper midrange and treble section. Below that frequency it is a normal box speaker, so if diffraction can not be controlled well then the "disappear" quality is lost.
Secondly, if the horn is big enough to cover midrange frequency as well (from 800-1kHz up) then the c-t-c between horn and woofer is big and will need a long minimum distance so that the sound of horn and woofer can blend together, unless it is a big MEH (multi entry horn). If listener is at too close position, the "disappear" quality can not exist.

I don't disagree with you on this one. A horn 'can' indeed disappear. I was specifically referring to a small directivity horn.

Cheers!

 

[Holmz]

There are a few factors:

1. Observable the way Amir tests speakers, i.e. listening to a single speaker, there should be no pseudo-stereo "spread" in the sound of one speaker playing alone. The sound should seem to originate from a point in space. (It's easy to detect things like acoustically out-of-phase drivers and undue diffraction effects this way.)
…

How does ^that^ sound?
I have not read any description of that in the write ups, and everyone quotes Toole who says, something like ’It doesn’t matter much.’

 

[ShadowFiend]

I don't disagree with you on this one. A horn 'can' indeed disappear. I was specifically referring to a small directivity horn.

Cheers!

yes, but that is not about the flaw of the small directivity horn concept, rather than the incompetence or cost saving of the speaker manufacturer. If cabinet is well optimized (with big roundover or beveled baffle) then the speaker can disappear like other type of speaker.

 

[dhaman]

I think the key is point source and first reflections at least 6ms (or absorb/diffuse)

 

[robh36062]

Sufficiently large round-overs and bevels are also effective ways to avoid detrimental reflections at the cabinet's edges. Imo "sufficiently large" in this context would be at least a 2-inch radius round-over, so in many cases a bevel is more practical. In the absence of adequate cabinet edge geometry, narrow speakers seem to me to be more likely to "disappear" than wide ones.

Hello Duke

Have you tried these MDF corners? They come in several sizes and are very easy to use. Once the glue dries you end up with really solid corners! You can paint or vernier.

Rob

 

[robh36062]

How does ^that^ sound?

With one speaker as in mono? See in measurements an issue at crossover audible? How would you know what it's supposed to sound like.

Stereo drivers out of phase? For a bass driver decidedly less bass and for mid and treble imaging goes out the window becomes very diffuse. Both are audible.

Go find a test disk for stereo set-up and listen to the phase test track. I would be amazed if you couldn't hear the difference.

Rob

 

[Yoku-San]

I would guess that a wide horizontal and vertical radiation of a speaker might help in creating the effect of a disappearing speaker, as you will more likely get a similar sound at different positions in the room.

 

[Blockader]

What makes speakers "disappear"?
And can it be measured ?

Yes. Wide controlled directivity is the answer. If the direct sound of speakers and early/late reflections have similar or same tonal profile, speakers disappear. On top of this, as long as speakers have controlled directivity(which makes direct and reflected sound similar to each other) more reflections make speakers disappear even better. Because if these different sound components are not similar, our brain works hard to integrate both, and that is what makes speakers not disappear.

 

[AncientMariner]

What makes speakers "disappear"?
And can it be measured ?

It feels like you're alluding it's "snakeoil"?

It's not, since sound waves are 3 dimensional. Stereo is what makes it possible to make sounds appear like they are not originating from the speaker.

You can measure directivity and the width of dispersion of a speaker, which both are indicators of stereo image.

When the speaker is placed in a room, the reflections of the room will impact the stereo image as well. This can be measured too, and corrected/improved with the use of EQ.

 

[AncientMariner]

Also, you can measure this without any electronic measuring equipment at all. You can instead use what I call the C.A.T. system to judge your stereo image (Cat Adjacent Test).

For this test, all you need is a CMD (Cat Measuring Device). If you don't have a CMD yourself, you can probably borrow one from one of your neighbours.

Place the CMD between the speakers and play music with a lot of stereo effects. A lot of electronic music works well for this test, especially if it includes bird sounds (bird sounds seems to improve the concentration/accuracy of the CMD). This, as an example, is an excellent track for C.A.T: https://tidal.com/browse/track/8901120?u

If the CMD stares at one of the speakers while you're playing music, your speaker is not disappearing. If the CMD points it's ears forward and look at different places in the room like you're moving a laser pointer around (laser pointer not required for the test), your speakers are indeed disappearing.

The C.A.T. system unfortunately doesn't provide feedback how to correct an unsatisfactory system, but will only show it's dismay of non proper system by leaving the room. The C.A.T. sytem is, however, a good unbiased source to verify if an already corrected system has been corrected properly.

 

[dualazmak]

Just for our notice, we already have similar (same?) thread What makes speakers "disappear" and can it be measured? started by the same OP on July 28, 2021!
I wonder, therefore, why this new thread again??

Nevertheless, at least in my case...
Just let me share the specific/typical selected links to my posts fit for your inquiry.

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

A new series of audio experiments on reflective wide-3D dispersion of super-tweeter sound using random-surface hard-heavy material:
Part-1_ Background, experimental settings, initial preliminary listening tests: #912
Part-2_ Comparison of catalogue specifications of metal horn super-tweeter (ST) FOSTEX T925A and YAMAHA Beryllium dome tweeter (TW) JA-0513; start of intensive listening sessions with wide-3D reflective dispersion of ST sound: #921
Part-3_ Listening evaluation of sound stage (sound image) using excellent-recording-quality lute duet tracks: #926
Part-3.1_ Listening evaluation of sound stage (sound image) using excellent-recording-quality jazz trio album: #927
Part-4_ Provisional conclusion to use Case-2 reverse reflective dispersion setting in default daily music listening: #929


The degree of SP disappearance can be measured?

Maybe, we can, if we have intensive and "the best" knowledges in audio science, and if we have SOTA measurement devices and software tools including multiple SOTA measurement microphones.

For me, however, it should be almost impossible since "the theme" is greatly dependent on so many factors including complex room modes of our individual listening environments. Consequently, my descriptions on "disappearance of SPs" in the above linked posts are/were almost totally based on my subjective listening sensation/feeling at my listening position and at 3D around my listening position, as typically represented by the two illustrations in my post #926 and #927.

Spoiler

 

[Jimbob54]

New posts merged in from second nearly identical thread. Lets not create admin work please folks.

 

[thewas]

New posts merged in from second nearly identical thread. Lets not create admin work please folks.

Interestingly Pearljam5000 created the "new" thread exactly 3 years and 1 day after he had created the original one, let's see what happens in 3 years from now.
I am betting that he still won't have bought any loudspeakers and keep asking the same questions.

 

[kma100]

What makes speakers "disappear"?
And can it be measured ?

Isn't this your first post?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Isn't this your first post?

Lol
I forgot I started this thread and started another one a few years later
And it got merged or something

 

[Duke]

Hello Duke

Have you tried these MDF corners? They come in several sizes and are very easy to use. Once the glue dries you end up with really solid corners! You can paint or vernier.

Rob

I hadn't seen that - very interesting! THANK YOU!!

 

[mhardy6647]

New posts merged in from second nearly identical thread. Lets not create admin work please folks.

Thank you for the explanation!
I thought for a moment I was having a TIA event.

 

[Duke]

Lol
I forgot I started this thread and started another one a few years later
And it got merged or something

I enjoy your threads and learn from the dialogue and discussion that results. I hope your interest and enthusiasm is one day matched by your speaker-buying budget!

 

[Pearljam5000]

I enjoy your threads and learn from the dialogue and discussion that results. I hope your interest and enthusiasm is one day matched by your speaker-buying budget!

Thanks
Much appreciated .

 

[MaxBuck]

Burglary. You need to let the police do the measurements.

LOL! I was going to say, give me your house keys and I can quickly arrange disappearance of not only your speakers but the remainder of your system.