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What makes a speaker boring or exciting ? and can it be measured?

gnarly said:
Here's the thing. Those sine sweeps measure the onset of short term thermal compression.
That limits how high you can take average SPL before some frequency range of the speaker starts to sag measured via average SPL.
Tonality gets effected, along with about every other audio characteristic. It's the onset of severely compromised audio, if one want SPL into thermal compression drive levels.

But those sine sweeps don't tell us anything about the speaker systems ability to produced short term peaks above the average sine-sweep level used.

Each sine sweep level. 76, 86, 96, 102dB.......needs to be able to produce peaks above its average level.
+18dB is a commonly quoted goal for peak vs average headroom.
Take Erin's 102dB sweep. We want that 102dB average drive level to be able to handle +18dB peaks without compressing or clipping.

Very short term transients are unlikely to initiate thermal compression, but they very often can't be reproduced due to insufficient driver excursion or insufficient amplifier power.

Peaks simply cannot be tested with sine sweeps .........they have too long a duration.
I've learned how to test for peak SPL linearity using very short wavelet tone bursts. It's an arduous and slow process, but after a while you learn it's always the low end of each drivers' section where limits set in.

I can easily say my experience is, ......when +18dB is truly available above average SPL, a number of SQ improvements occur.
And that it's a hell of a lot harder to achieve that clean headroom than commonly realized....especially when trying to reach SPL levels at the top end of a speakers SPL capability range (prior to thermal compression)
Click to expand...
I understand your point.

That said, Erin’s measurements are still useful. You can start with your target average SPL -say, 86 dB -and analyze the corresponding curve, which represents continuous output.

For peaks and transients, you can refer to the 102 dB trace to estimate behavior. Since transients are much shorter than the sweep duration used for the 102 dB average trace, the real-world impact may be less pronounced than what that trace suggests. -Or higher, depending on how much headroom you're interested in.
 
gnarly said:
I can easily say my experience is, ......when +18dB is truly available above average SPL, a number of SQ improvements occur.
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I agree. Also a number of unexpected effects when it comes to perception.
 

terryforsythe said:
I find the following speaker characteristics that make a speaker exciting to listen to:

Low bass extension - can be supplemented with one or more properly integrated subwoofers, the more the merrier if covering a large area.

High dynamic range (measured as response linearity comparing various SPL levels to a base level)

Wide dispersion with consistant directivity (depicted in horizontal contour plot)

No significant peaks or dips in the frequency response

Low harmonic distortion

Low cabinet vibrations

High damping factor

No, or extremely low, inductor core losses (measured with a specialized power loss meter or using an oscilloscope).
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Essentially agree with you! :)


terryforsythe said:
Side note: I used to only use air core inductors in speakers I built, but now I am all active.
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Me too!:D

And let me add one additional point of "right-person-in-right-place" selection of amplifiers in fully active setup.

I too like to go advance towards completely eliminating all of passive LC(R) network (and attenuators), i.e. fully active setup with all the SP drivers are directly and dedicatedly driven by each of the multiple-amplifiers; I actually did find such fully active multichannel multi-amplifier setup makes speaker(s) much more vivid and exciting.

Please refer to my post #931 on my project thread for details of the latest system setup.
 
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bigLP said:
Are peaks, compression and some of those other things related to speaker "dynamics'. . That is more word salad maybe, can we define and measure dynamics? Compare the voltage differences in the output of the amp speak terminals, vs what it is right before it hits the cone(I dont know if that is possible). That would have something to do with boring or excitement maybe. Is there a measurement or something that can figure how fast a signal moves through the motor assembly and crossover? Do some speakers sap more energy(voltage or current) from the signal than others?
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Dynamic range, dynamics, crest factor....I think these and similar terms all rely on some type of peak to average signal analysis.

Just like music is compressed to bring peak signal levels down relative to average signal level, many/most of our speakers perform the same type of compression.
And yes, we can measure when peaks start to compress on our speakers.

Acoustically, a microphone can measure the voltage of a very short tone burst coming from the speaker. As long as the microphone voltage rises in direct proportion to an increase in the stimulus voltage, the speaker is maintaining peak linearity and not compressing.
When it fails to keep up, either the driver can no longer provide a linear increase in excursion, or the amp can no longer provide the peak voltage, or both.

Measuring the electrical signal of the amp output at the speaker terminals is for finding out which of the issues is the problem; the driver running out of linear excursion, or the amp running out of linear output.

Imo, it doesn't really pay to try to over analyze or conceptualize things here....because it's too dang easy to measure this facet of speaker performance for our speakers for ourselves. REW, it's tone burst generator and dual channel o'scope, along with a mic and done. It's just tedious because it's a single frequency test.

The sine sweeps that test thermal compression are a bit harder to pull off....or at least harder to pull off in a reliable repeatable fashion...ime.
 
Old_School_Brad said:
That said, Erin’s measurements are still useful. You can start with your target average SPL -say, 86 dB -and analyze the corresponding curve, which represents continuous output.
Click to expand...

1000% agree. The sine sweeps Erin provides are extremely useful for knowing the onset of thermal compression. . Didn't mean to imply anything otherwise.

In fact, if I could only have one set of measurements, average SPL capability (as per the sine sweeps); or peak SPL capability as per the tone burst test I just mentioned in another post.....I would choose the sine sweep average SPL in a heartbeat.

Reason being, thermal compression can only be determined when measured with increasing drive levels. (commonly called the 'toaster oven' method in proaudio circles).
No telling how thermal works in real world,..... simulations/calculations can be off a lot.

Whereas peak compression can also only be fully determined by measurements, but it can be largely approximated by calculation, when drivers' excursions via SPL are known, along with amps peak voltage capability.

Those calculations btw, show that the vast majority of home audio speakers have no way of handling +18dB peaks relative to the average SPL they are used at.
It's a bit ironic imo, that so many folks lament compression in recordings, when their speakers aren't that far from doing the same damn thing when playing a bit loud.
A compression matchup made in heaven LOL....
 
gnarly said:
1000% agree. The sine sweeps Erin provides are extremely useful for knowing the onset of thermal compression. . Didn't mean to imply anything otherwise.

In fact, if I could only have one set of measurements, average SPL capability (as per the sine sweeps); or peak SPL capability as per the tone burst test I just mentioned in another post.....I would choose the sine sweep average SPL in a heartbeat.

Reason being, thermal compression can only be determined when measured with increasing drive levels. (commonly called the 'toaster oven' method in proaudio circles).
No telling how thermal works in real world,..... simulations/calculations can be off a lot.

Whereas peak compression can also only be fully determined by measurements, but it can be largely approximated by calculation, when drivers' excursions via SPL are known, along with amps peak voltage capability.

Those calculations btw, show that the vast majority of home audio speakers have no way of handling +18dB peaks relative to the average SPL they are used at.
It's a bit ironic imo, that so many folks lament compression in recordings, when their speakers aren't that far from doing the same damn thing when playing a bit loud.
A compression matchup made in heaven LOL....
Click to expand...
I agree.
I also believe this relatively unknown phenomenon, for most people, also explains the varying perceptions of the same gear. For many speakers (and amplifiers, for that matter), the limits are likely much lower in terms of SPL than you'd expect, especially considering the listening distance and the type of program material.
 
Threads like that are the last hope of delusional subjectivists to question objective performance.


So let's take a hypothesis, that someone actually likes a live performance (the music), gets excited and want to have something near at home.
So,I'm asking: what's the first and most objective parameter when listening to real stuff? They too are affected by the places that are performed in, etc, the works.

First and foremost is undistorted levels with all the CR glory right there. Want lower? It won't affect the quality, you just gonna go a little bit further back the hall.
Want gloriously loud? You take front seats.

Neither should be annoying in an "exiting" rig, you just choose your distance.
Yep, nice, big, mains monitors like gear in short or their equivalent in hi-fi.
A faithful as they can be to the source, that's measurable too those days, sadly for the fellow anti-measurement camp, an FSAF measurement (or a few) and you know in seconds (yes, with music)

Sometimes it gets sad when things start to narrow.
 
terryforsythe said:
What is "boring" is very subjective, and not the same for all people. With a scientific study perhaps some level of concensus could be found. Absent that, there only are opinions.
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I liked your initial list. In your quote above, if the first part is true then the level of consensus to be found will be slight. If I remember accurately, the research that showed a slightly sloping curve is what people prefer actually showed that 70% preferred it; so quite a few did not.

I have been to some 10 audio shops over the last few months listening to a lot of broadly well regarded speaker brands and focusing on speakers that range from 7k a pair to a number that were over 20k. This leads me to contribute these ideas.

1) In this price range every single pair sounded good to me. Every pair.

2) The ones that stood out seem to have a particular strength that I heard, that differentiated them. Is that my definition for exciting? Maybe. Were the all round good speakers boring? Well, I wouldn't use that term because they sound good but they didn't have that extra something that distinguished them. And some of the most expensive speakers I heard were definitely in the category of sounds good but not a stand out. Of course several pricy models were also some of the most appealing. It was probably a 50/50 split once I was over 15k.

I am thinking of the guy that puts 10k+ of subwoofer into his car. EXCITING, to him lol. Terrible to many of us. Exciting does not always mean good and I suppose boring doesn't always mean bad either.
 
What makes a speaker boring or exciting ? and can it be measured?
Click to expand...
Yes, of course it can be measured.
An exciting loudspeaker is one that measures perfectly and whose dynamic behavior is completely uniform from 60db to 120db at the listening distance.

It has a straight frequency response in the free field from 20hz to 40khz

It shows perfect waterfall diagrams, has a great impulse response in every frequency range and has no sweet spot.

Unfortunately, there are deviations from theory to reality with every loudspeaker.
 
For me a big stack funktion ones or void - so a high clarity, clean, punchy, high SPL, big physical bass presence where you feel it in your feet, chest and throat. I guess the sound has to feel like it’s surrounding you too. distortion isn’t very obvious to me compared to cheap PA . When I’ve heard a single Funktion one speaker outside from a few meters away with no one in between me and the speaker they sound incredible exciting but not unbalanced or lacking clarity at all. It also comes with hearing damage as standard though.

My goal is to find out how I can replicate this at home keeping without needing to listen at 100+ db SPL
 
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Wesseling Audio Lab said:
No resonance, flat on axis frequency response and uniform off axis response is exciting!
Boring is when speaker doesn't have the above. The further away it is, the more boring it is.

It's measured!
Click to expand...
Depends what you're after. I like playing around with coloured speakers for fun
 
Audionaut said:
Yes, but homo ludens doesn't count on ASR, because homo metiens rules.
Click to expand...
With others, sometimes the thrill of rule-breaking doesn’t feel too bad.
 
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