Recommend speakers that disappear

[xkhjkdwq]

Looking for speaker recommendations. This is for a 2 or 2.1 channel setup used only for music.

I don't care about anything else other than,
1. Speakers that disappear so I can't pinpoint that the sound is coming from the speakers.
2. Boxy sound that seems common with the boxed speakers I have heard

Currently I own B&W 804 Nautilus and its a hit or miss with respect to above two points depending on the song and volume I play it at.

Budget is $5k used or new

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Revel

 

[ppataki]

Anything with coaxial drivers - that will ensure point source behaviour and make the cabinets disappear
Look at Kef and Genelec for example

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Coaxial point source. You might not like.

 

[voodooless]

Why not first try to fix the problem for free? The B&W speaker isn’t very neutral, but its directivity isn’t too bad. EQ could be used to make the speaker more linear, and with some more tweaking it may yield the results you like.

 

[Snarfie]

Vandersteen when placed correctly. By design phase coherent/time alignt build. My DSP has to do less is my impressions.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I agree with @voodooless
Your current speakers have a solid foundation to work with.
I would recommend using EQ or room correction as a solution.

 

[Galliardist]

The Nautilus range generally (I don't know about the 804) was the last that B&W built before they went really bright.
Try listening off axis - if you haven't tried it, point the speakers straight down the room to start, and toe in a little at a time - and make sure your amp is sufficiently powerful. You need a lot more than the published specs suggest.

Let us know about the rest of the system and the room. I'm assuming that you will change speakers, but it's still worth getting the best out of what you have as a precursor, and people can do a bit more than guess if we know the full extent of the problem you have.

 

[jeffbook]

Anything designed by SIegfried Linkwitz

 

[holbob]

Revel

Having had the R3, M16, M106 and now Q7 Meta definitely not Revel. Great speakers, but the wide soundstage means you can locate the speakers more easily. Kef are much better in that regard.

 

[uwotm8]

I would say MBL but you need rather unlimited budget. Typical boxes will remain boxes more or less

MartinLogan electrostatic speakers are sort of "poor man's MBL" or 2.5D (instead of 3D if not 4D lol)

Obviously both are far away from typical point source... or not? IMO omnidirectional speaker is a true spherical point source instead of "direct ray source" what, say, KEF trying to be.

 

[Jim Taylor]

The fact that your speakers sometimes exhibit the characteristics you desire means that the speakers are not your problem. If they were defective in this regard, they would NEVER exhibit the characteristics desired.
More likely the source of your problems lies with the recordings, room acoustics or your listening position.

These articles may help you:

Fine-Tuning Your Soundstage: Tips for Imaging and Localization

A well-defined soundstage is the foundation of a captivating audio experience. Ideally, the ultimate listening experience is not just about volume and clarity,

audiocurious.com

Speaker Placement 101: Is Speaker-Boundary Interference Killing Your Bass?

Not hearing enough bass through your monitors? The distance between your room boundaries and speakers has a huge impact on your bass performance. This tutorial will show you specific strategies for placing your speakers to get a balanced bass response.

arqen.com

Regarding imaging and soundstaging: https://www.soundstageaccess.com/in...ic-i-use-to-evaluate-soundstaging-and-imaging

Good luck!

 

[dualazmak]

Just for your possible interest and reference...

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

- A new series of audio experiments on reflective wide-3D dispersion of super-tweeter sound using random-surface hard-heavy material:
Part-1_ Background, experimental settings, initial preliminary listening tests: #912
Part-2_ Comparison of catalogue specifications of metal horn super-tweeter (ST) FOSTEX T925A and YAMAHA Beryllium dome tweeter (TW) JA-0513; start of intensive listening sessions with wide-3D reflective dispersion of ST sound: #921
Part-3_ Listening evaluation of sound stage (sound image) using excellent-recording-quality lute duet tracks: #926
Part-3.1_ Listening evaluation of sound stage (sound image) using excellent-recording-quality jazz trio album: #927
Part-4_Provisional conclusion to use Case-2 reverse reflective dispersion setting in default daily music listening: #929

 

[Keith_W]

Perhaps it might help to say, "I want speakers that create so many reflections that its direct sound is less prominent in the sound field". In which case, the answer would be dipoles and omnis.

You mentioned boxy sound. I had an interesting discussion with an Australian speaker designer (who designs dipoles). He used that term "boxy sound" as a reason why he prefers dipoles. I asked him "what is boxy sound, and what properties of a speaker create it?". His answer was (paraphrasing here), "Boxy sound sounds as if everything from the left channel is localised to the left speaker. The stereo image is hard panned left and right, with nothing in the centre and nothing lateral to the speakers. There is no soundstage depth. The speakers that typically do this are monopole speakers, especially monopole speakers with a narrow cone of radiation, and especially horns. Excessive room treatment can also contribute, and also bad recordings".

I have no idea if he is right or not. So this thread needs more @Duke and more @DonH56. What do you guys think boxy sound is? And why does it happen?

 

[Sokel]

Perhaps it might help to say, "I want speakers that create so many reflections that its direct sound is less prominent in the sound field". In which case, the answer would be dipoles and omnis.

You mentioned boxy sound. I had an interesting discussion with an Australian speaker designer (who designs dipoles). He used that term "boxy sound" as a reason why he prefers dipoles. I asked him "what is boxy sound, and what properties of a speaker create it?". His answer was (paraphrasing here), "Boxy sound sounds as if everything from the left channel is localised to the left speaker. The stereo image is hard panned left and right, with nothing in the centre and nothing lateral to the speakers. There is no soundstage depth. The speakers that typically do this are monopole speakers, especially monopole speakers with a narrow cone of radiation, and especially horns. Excessive room treatment can also contribute, and also bad recordings".

I have no idea if he is right or not. So this thread needs more @Duke and more @DonH56. What do you guys think boxy sound is? And why does it happen?

Kyron audio?

 

[goat76]

With many audio productions, it is unavoidable that some sound objects are tied to the location of one or the other speaker. But if everything in most music mixes seems to be coming from the points of the two loudspeakers, it's most likely a positioning setup problem with the speakers.

Other problems can be that the two loudspeakers have a mismatched frequency response, or the room reflections dominate too much over the direct sound from the loudspeakers in a way that the positions of the loudspeakers are given away.

 

[Sokel]

What we all have experienced about it is at places like clubs with stereo or similar places when the music is still playing very low.
Sometimes you have to look to know.

The same effect can be tested at home.Make the room as silent as possible and try the lowest level.
Strangely,the bigger the speakers,the better they disappear.

 

[holbob]

Getting the speakers time aligned and gain matched at the MLP is crucial for getting the speakers to disappear. Then anything that is panned left or right is on the recording. Obviously if you have the speakers the exact same distance from the MLP as each other then this should be happening organically. I have a glass door on one side, and I'm slightly nearer to one speaker, so I need to do it in software.

 

[voodooless]

I think we lost the OP, they were never seen again after that first post...

 

[Keith_W]

Kyron audio?

No. When I chatted to him, he did not want me to share the conversation. Oops, I just did There aren't many dipole manufacturers in Australia. This one isn't well known internationally. It is barely known here.